To demand a harder hitting campaign to promote breastfeeding?

[WashwithCare]

I?m sometimes taken aback to hear mothers gave up bf-ing because it was sore, or involved feeding for hours at a time? What did they expect? What did they think newborns do? Didn?t they imagine that anything chewing on your nipple for 10 hours a day was going to nip a bit?

But then again, who can blame them? Breastfeeding for the minimum WHO recommendation of 2 years is practically unheard of. Nearly everyone will tell you it?s absolutely your decision, and fine to stop. The public info campaign is fluffy and vague about the benefits, and the baby on the follow-on formula milk box looks decidedly peachy. Lots of women are so mis-informed, they believe that formula is almost as good as breastmilk.

Is it time for something a little harder hitting? How about this for a tv ad; (scene 1) mum feeding her newborn a bottle telling her mate how hard bf-ing was. Caption: Breastfeeding Hurts. (scene 2) same mum, but now older, bald and sick, hugs toddler. Caption: So does breast cancer. FADE to caption: "Breastfeeding significantly Reduces your Life Time Risk of Breast Cancer". Followed by cheesy inspirational slogan.

Oh good we've reached that stage of the thread have we?

Did anyone else watch QI lastnight? It seems we have fulfilled Godwin's Law (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) and to think I didn't believe it was true.

if the RCM turned up at my doorstep and explained the "facts" fully, I would more than welcome her into my house, but I want FACTS, not "Mays" "if" "but" or "they believe" the FACT is that it "may" reduce cancer it "may" reduce SIDS and all the other "Mays" they have cited!

I have never once, disregarded any of the "theories" but I however wont be thinking that these "theories" are set in stone, but their is so many variables in between!

I am also bloody infuriated that you have made one hell of a assumption standanddeliver and WWC! as that where you are ignorant, self righteous and thick beyond belief! as you simply only see the "BREAST IS BEST LOGO"

I have never once said in here breast is NOT best, what I have stated many many times that BREAST was NOT best for MY SON! as it could have killed him!

I did not have a choice to FF my child, I did not even have a choice on which milk to feed my son, and have also had a hard slog and battled against his consultants over his care and FM due to the shamefully ridiculous price of it!

I didn't make the wrong CHOICE as simply I had NO CHOICE (ignorant beyond belief)!

Yet again you make assumptions, because YOU are the ones who are ignorant in this topic!

you call this support to breastfeeding both of you need your heads examining, all you are here to do is dictate to people that they should not have a choice! (evidently by your last posts) you do not want to teach people at all, just scaremonger them into these apparent "FACTS" when simply they are not!

They shouldn't be disregarded, but they should not be scaremongered to people who are unsure of their CHOICE or not their CHOICE in some cases, and make them aware of the ACTUAL facts which is out their.

Im actually now LOL at the both of you, because quite rightfully both of you are pathetic and shameful to mothers! and the whole campaign, WE NEED SUPPORT, on BF and BTF (more so on BF) but not in this manner!

Ahh, LittleMissHappy. You know evolution is only a theory don't you? It hasn't actually been /proven/.

Oh, just to add a little weight to my argument...
... "simples"

Yes and your point being...........

Its not been scare tatic to us now is it! or shoved upon us!

simples! (just to add little weight obliviously)!

Eeeek! I'm really not Science-minded but even I can understand that it's virtually impossible to 'prove' a link or a cause between one thing or another. There are a few exceptions (smoking and lung cancer for e.g.) but most of these were merely theories for years or even decades before they gathered enough unequivocal evidence to become facts.

LittleMissHappy, if you want solid PROOF that breast milk is better for babies you'll probably be waiting a very long time indeed.

And in the meantime, can you find any evidence that suggests formula is as good as/better than breast milk?

Personally, I have seen enough evidence to believe that breast milk is the ideal food for babies and that formula cannot be quite as good BUT that it is a good enough substitute for the babies who cannot be breast fed.

Oh dear.

The point is that while NO research will indisputably prove something once and for all, it will add evidence and credibility to an argument.

If research has been published in a journal, it has been peer-reviewed. This means it has been carefully scrutinised for mistakes, bias etc.

No research will ever be perfect. To use your example, alcohol and smoking's effects on pregnancy are known to be harmful because most of the evidence (from scientific studies published in respected journals) shows so. Similarly, all the evidence from similar sources shows that breastmilk is more beneficial than formula milk. You can argue on the credibility of particular studies, but you can't distinguish between 'proven facts' and 'mays' - EVERYTHING is a 'may' in life, from evolution to gravity. Science works that way. Everything is a theory.

I think I'm banging my head against a wall here though.

Can we not debate specifically about education and advertising in regards to breastfeeding which seemed to be what this thread was about, rather than 'RAR! Breastfeeding is better than bottlefeeding! No it isn't! Yes it is!"?

And to use LittleMrsHappy's term 'scaremongering' - how do we educate without scaremongering but remaining truthful to the evidence we have? (All of which points to some strong benefits of breastfeeding on infant and maternal health)

I think the scaremongering accusation is because this is such a particularly emotive issue and mothers are riddled with guilt, no matter what we do. Personally I feel crap about the fact that I let my children watch TV because the evidence strongly suggests that children who don't watch TV do much better at school. However, I can't really survive motherhood and PND without the odd bit of TV here and there.

And btw, I recognise that letting one's offspring watch TV is very much a choice, unlike FF is for some mothers.

Offin if you read my posts, you will see I haven't discredited them, but what I am saying instead of saying it WILL protect against a reducment in cancer or it WILL protect against SIDS, cite that it MAY, as if somebody is coming on here and is unsure of their feeding method choice, then to read comments that it WILL protect against them, is false information and also the information is being given in a scare tactic way.

Im never going to discredit any "pros" for BF, who would, but dont cite them as FACT or set in stone when it is merely a possibility that it just "may"

I have stated and will again BREAST is best for SOME babies, but its substitute is not devils juice, as some of the relentless posters in a round about way have made it our to be.

And if people want to give up or choose not to do so then that's their right!, however we very clearly need more support out their when it comes to BF, more factual knowledge, what actually happens in the early days of BF and the difficulties that we will endure.

SUPPORT IS NEEDED all round, but definitely not in this manner x

when this is what the OP was asking for x x x

LittleMrsHappy

I don't think anyone has cited evidence in favour of BFing as 'fact'. Can you point out where anyone has done so on this thread? I don't recall anyone saying that BFing WILL prevent breast cancer, just that it MIGHT help to prevent certain types of cancer.

In response to that, you said that you would not accept evidence that BF MAY help prevent breast cancer. You said you wanted hard FACTS. Carmen and others are trying to demonstrate why hard scientific facts are not possible.

I think you're backtracking a bit here.

And you do seem to be a tiny bit defensive. But there's no need to be. You fed your child in a way that worked for you, whether that was through choice or not. Why worry about what others say or think if you are happy and confident with what you did?

CSD, my pp can be to you also, I agree a little with what you have said about how do we teach with scaremongering, BUT we dont teach everyday LIFE skills in this way, and we also dont make mothers feel like the choice they made or didn't make, feel insuperior or that we were not putting our children's health first (Yes WWC comment)

Imagery in the REAL sense of breastfeeding is a way forward I believe and also formula to not be made into the big taboo that it is, as I think that's were the problem starts a little. Its raises heckles from the start and all this superior attitude from BF.

Im not sure what the way forward is tbh, but everything in that has been done on this site and by peoples comments is definitely not the way forward x

I will show later, my head is a little confused at the min, as ds2 is needing a feed.

I am also defensive as by WWC and also standandelivers comments about me choosing that I made the wrong choice.

I simply never had the choice x

LittleMrsHappy

Putting your baby on their front may protect them from SIDS (because babies who sleep on their backs also die from SIDS)

Eating five portions of fruit and veg a day may protect you from cancer (because even vegetarians get cancer sometimes)

Breastfeeding your baby may protect you from breast cancer (because even women who breastfeed sometimes develop breast cancer)

Breastfeeding your baby may protect them from respitory and gastric illness (as breastfed babies also get these diseases - albeit in smaller numbers).

Can we agree that all of these statements are logical and based on extensive research by reputable organisations?

"but its substitute is not devils juice, as some of the relentless posters in a round about way have made it our to be"

No - actually nobody has implied that formula is the 'devil's juice'. You are just trying to justify your anger by making those who disagree with you appear unreasonable and unfair.

"And if people want to give up or choose not to do so then that's their right!"

And the point of this statement is? Is there anyone here who has said or implied otherwise?

Do you have a problem

How can formula be taboo? It is the most common way to feed your baby in this country and most people are using it after a few weeks.

'Im not sure what the way forward is tbh, but everything in that has been done on this site and by peoples comments is definitely not the way forward'

Sorry but I think that's a bit offensive to the many MNers who try to promote and support BFing in non-aggressive and tactful ways and who have written posts on this thread which support BFing while not insulting FF mums. I agree that some posters come across as a tad aggressive about it but many aren't.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'imagery in the real sense of breastfeeding.'

And I'm sorry, but I'm sure you did say at one point that you would not accept evidence that BFing MAY do xyz...you asked for FACTS.

Nonetheless, I understand why you feel defensive and I think some of the pro-BFers' stance doesn't help that. I also understand why you felt you didn't have a choice in how to feed your son.

It sounds as though your son is thriving though, so what's not to like?

"Well done Mrs Bean - some women really do go the xtra mile. Friend of my mine was hospitalised in a breast care ward with mastitis and although she was in agony she was determined and carried on."

Cheers WWC, thanks a lot. I guess that implies that I wasn't as determined then, since I was in agony and gave in to using formula.

I really wish people would stop implying that b/f succeeds for some and not others because the successful ones are more "determined"! Makes me and

WWC said "I do think it's good [MrsBean] felt under pressure to keep going".

Well guess what, there is quite enough internal pressure to succeed without anyone needing external pressures as well. I would never ever describe any pressure of that kind as "good" because, I said before with no comment from yourself or anyone else, I spent the first few weeks of my son's life thinking I was going to kill him. My b/f problems and the associated pressures ruined our first few weeks and I'll never forget it.

carmen go to page 21 your post!

Breastfeeding doesn't guarantee you full protection against SIDS, breast cancer, leukemia, ear infections, diarrhoeal infections or anything else.

But it DOES cut rates of all of these things

same with standand deliver on page 18 and WWC on page two and many others OH and her OP!

where on any of these does it say "MAY It was only when I said, that it is not FACT or set in stone, that people then decided to change their minds.

No research will ever be perfect. To use your example, alcohol and smoking's effects on pregnancy are known to be harmful because most of the evidence (from scientific studies published in respected journals) shows so. Similarly, all the evidence from similar sources shows that breastmilk is more beneficial than formula milk. You can argue on the credibility of particular studies, but you can't distinguish between 'proven facts' and 'mays' - EVERYTHING is a 'may' in life, from evolution to gravity. Science works that way. Everything is a theory.

Offin said the above, I disagree with this also, you drink to excess you are putting your life at risk, FACT AND PROVEN BY THE RATES ON DEATHS AND EVIDENCE! you smoke to excess, you can get associated problems and also lung caner, these are proven, AND ARE NOT theories! (please look u the deintion fo this please) x

I have also never said that FM is more beneifical than BM either!

and NO I wont accept the research as it has to many variables in between, but that doesn't mean I disregard them. I also feel we are going round in circles.

I have loads more to say, but I am off to put the children to bed and spent time with the hubby x

Im also the one, not with the problem, I see what evidently been put here,I dont read between the lines. I BTF and apparently I never put my sons health 1st (WWC comment)

I disagreed with the research and got called all sorts, when simply what I have said is the TRUTH! going by these relentless posts

same with standand deliver on page 18 and WWC on page two and many others OH and her OP!

where on any of these does it say "MAY It was only when I said, that it is not FACT or set in stone, that people then decided to change their minds.

Well Mrs Happy, on the original post it states:
"Breastfeeding significantly Reduces your Life Time Risk of Breast Cancer".

That's an accurate claim - I didn't say, you won't get bf if you breastfeed, because that isn't true - I said it will reduce your risk... and I haven't stood down from anything.

Personally, I'd quit worrying that you didn't bf your children - it seems like that is the least of their worries.

Littlemisshappy - there are so many flaws with your post and contradictions but because you clearly genuinely don't get it I can't be arsed to point each one out to you as you are rather blinkered. However, I am sure others will.

Sorry - meant breastcancer if you don't breastfeed

Their is a massive difference between the words DOES AND MAY and this is what I have been trying to say all along.

Expecially with such a emotive subject.

Also formula is a taboo subject in the medical world, I have never been given any info from medical experts, ds consultants, MW etc... about FF my son, I was told that BF was a massive dangerous risk to my ds and that I should FF, I asked what milk was best to give him, and they gave me the cheapest one, and I have continually fought to get any information about FM for him. One Dr stopped hos milk as it was too expensive and told me to go on shop brought formula, which would have made my son very very poorly. I was always told they couldn't discuss FM as it was not promoting the breast is best campaign.

what use was that too me, when my breast MILK could have killed him x

I would have to add that there is something almost paternalistic, for want of a better word, when people post judgement on the outcome of someone's infant feeding experience. Wow, WWC, you don't think I'm selfish! I feel so much better about myself, although yes, you are so right it's just as well silly ol' likkle me had adequate "pressure" to continue to do something I had chosen to do because without the force of that pressure, who knows what dark path I might have tread?

I don't care what the research says. Women have no right to judge other women - for better or for worse - in this way, especially when our 'feeding journeys' are so diverse. There have been terribly patronising statements made on this thread e.g. it's terrible that LMH "FELT" she had no choice but to ff. So easy for people who have had straightforward experiences to applaud or deride those who have had different experiences.

The awful thing is that I agree with so much breastfeeding advocacy - women do need more support, breast is best, there is terrible pressure to ff in this society that needs to be addressed.. however, there HAS to be a way of addressing these issues without taking a 'holier than thou' tone and patronising other women and invalidating their experiences ("oh, yeah, you THOUGHT you needed to take formula when you were cracking up but actually, you could have just kept going and saved your child a world of gastrointestinal trouble! Silly girl! No wonder you feel so cr*p about yourself now!")

That the POINT, it WONT REDUCE YOUR RISK! it MAY REDUCE YOUR RISK!

Honestly bangs head against brick wall.

hand up and gives up, it pointless!

WWC, my children are perfectly healthy shame I cant say the same about your step children Eh!

your a Muppet through and through!, plain and simples!

Thread reported again!

Oh and READ ,my posts correctly their is NO contradictions