To demand a harder hitting campaign to promote breastfeeding?

[WashwithCare]

I?m sometimes taken aback to hear mothers gave up bf-ing because it was sore, or involved feeding for hours at a time? What did they expect? What did they think newborns do? Didn?t they imagine that anything chewing on your nipple for 10 hours a day was going to nip a bit?

But then again, who can blame them? Breastfeeding for the minimum WHO recommendation of 2 years is practically unheard of. Nearly everyone will tell you it?s absolutely your decision, and fine to stop. The public info campaign is fluffy and vague about the benefits, and the baby on the follow-on formula milk box looks decidedly peachy. Lots of women are so mis-informed, they believe that formula is almost as good as breastmilk.

Is it time for something a little harder hitting? How about this for a tv ad; (scene 1) mum feeding her newborn a bottle telling her mate how hard bf-ing was. Caption: Breastfeeding Hurts. (scene 2) same mum, but now older, bald and sick, hugs toddler. Caption: So does breast cancer. FADE to caption: "Breastfeeding significantly Reduces your Life Time Risk of Breast Cancer". Followed by cheesy inspirational slogan.

I strongly suspect DD1 and DS were tongue-tied as well.

I was able to feed DD2 with no pain at all even on a nipple that had three blisters healing up (from a bad latch the counsellor sorted), so I knew it wasn't supposed to feel like that with DS, but I had no idea tongue tie existed.

It felt like razor blades at every feed with him and I gave up after 2 days.

There was NO help on offer, especially as this is a rural area.

I also didn't appear to have the supply I had with DD2. Man, it was amazing with her, but again, might have been from if he had tongue tie.

Yes, MrsJuan. Hospitals should absolutely be doing this. There's a lot of evidence to support immediate skin-to-skin contact upon birth.

I think the big BIG problem with this thread is target audience. On Mumsnet, we're mostly mums - we've been through it and we've made our choice how to feed our baby. It's too late now to do anything about it and we either feel happy or sad with our decision and any information like this can be seen to be preachy or rubbing salt in the wound. I'm sorry. That isn't the intention.

I AM interested in talking about the value of education and advertising targeted at pregnant women though and I feel it is a valid debate.

Imagine you are pregnant with your first baby and there's a sliding scale of how you feel about breastfeeding from 1 to 10 with 1 being 'not going to breastfeed' and 10 being 'determined to breastfeed at all costs.'

Now even people who tick a 10 might not manage to breastfeed, and some people who tick a 1 might be swung around to the benefits of breastfeeding. But in general, the closer you tick to 10, the more likely you are to be successful in breastfeeding and the more likely you are to keep going in the face of obstacles. Sure, success isn't guaranteed and there is a small percentage of women who can't breastfeed no matter what. But there IS a correlation between attitude and success.

I strongly believe that if women have a readable summary of the known research before they give birth, they will be more likely to tick a higher number than they would if they only had a hazy idea that 'breast is best.'

(BTW, there is a lot of evidence to support this method in birth as well with regards to how you feel about pain relief for example. Those who tick 'determined to avoid epidural/pain relief' are more likely to have drug-free labours.)

Now of course there are a lot of risks here. For one, the specifics of research are debatable as can be seen. For another, if women DON'T manage to breastfeed and they did feel determined, they're perhaps more likely to feel guilty or upset about the outcome. Thirdly, it goes without saying that women need to be utterly supported - this means policy changes and reviews in hospitals, more breastfeeding counsellors, as well as with regards to public breastfeeding laws and maternity leave. But I do think demand pushes supply, so if you have a generation of women determined to breastfeed, the policymakers will have to listen harder.

These are important issues and are worthy of being discussed without namecalling and snappiness.

Expat - razor blades describes it exactly. Absolute agony.

LittleMrsHappy, you've managed to get your point across perfectly well, that's the problem!

Having breast fed both DD's for a year a piece and had mastitis (with all its joys!)... I don't need a medal. It was my choice, and feel I that other mothers should feel free to make up their own minds. Why is it any of our business how others feed their children? I have friends who have b fed, and those that have used bottle from birth...really wouldn't like to judge them on this, their choice. B feeding has become a trendy middle class thing to do. If you want to feed your children...great, but don't pass judgment on others. Think it puts people off in the end.

I agree with mrsjuan, this is what I had and it helped enormously. Women must also have sustained support. Nobody told me that while DD was ramping up my supply, I'd be practically glued to the sofa, particularly in the evening. I wanted to top up with a bottle at that stage, but when I tried, she refused it. Apparently I'd missed the window. What window! Nobody told me about any window! I was too tired to pursue it as I had no support. I was also deluded about the role of the health visitor. While pregnant, I'd often panic about what I'd do with the baby (mum not around anymore) and I'd comfort myself with the thought of the health visitor coming round on a regular basis. Must have been thinking of some rosy TV drama, not the realities of the NHS. My best friend was google, as I'd google every issue I had. On the positive side, that is how I stumbled across Mumsnet!

To the OP - you have clearly been eating off the crazy plate and taken a turning down Luny Lane.

Good post Carmen

Stand - lol - you are very naughty for losing patient, esp after telling me off for being tactless.. but I appreciate exactly how you feel ;-)

Good post Carmen

Stand - lol - you are very naughty for losing patience, esp after telling me off for being tactless.. but I appreciate exactly how you feel ;-)

it was so bad, gaelic, i'd be stiff with pain and sobbing.

all the midwife said was, 'the latch looks okay.'

and then nothing when i sent DH out to get bottles and formula.

i had no idea what would cause that kind of pain and no one seemed to care.

and again, rural area so no NCT or la leche or anything.

Have not read all 29 pages sorry. Every time dd fed the pain on a scale of 0 to 10 was 13. It hurt so badly. I stayed in hospital a week to establish breatfeeding. At home the midwife advised. A 'Breastmates' woman came round and surprise surprise told me to adopt the rugby hold.We needed 6 cushions in various places around me to set that up.
None ever told me it would hurt. I went to every NCT session and all I found out was that it's a beautiful experience.
I was constantly feeding and dd was losing weight rapidly.
If I had another baby, I'd def. try breastfeeding again, but wouldn't beat myself up if it didn't work out.

Expat - me too. Very interesting to hear the comparison with your first - it gives me hope for this next one. How have we never discovered this similarity before? We spoke a lot before I namechanged (staying incognito for now).

WWC, you asked about my stats on NHS data. Well, I already posted the link but it's here. It's very up to date on BFing uptake. It's being done on a quarterly basis now. (only on initial uptake, not ongoing)

www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Children/Maternity/Maternalandinfantnutrition/Breastfeedinginfantfeeding /DH_073254

Thanks for the link - my issue with it is what they count as an attempt to feed.. bascially if you are prepared to put baby to breast for 1 second, you count...

So it says about 70% - which means 3 in 10 mothers make NO atempt to feed at all.

In Scotland, by 6 weeks, only 3.5 out of 10 mums are feeding, and of them only 2.5 are ebf.

Just not good enuf, if you ask me!

yeah but it's still a majority giving it a go - that indicates it is considered "the norm," and ongoing efforts by the NHS mean it will probably continue to improve. I say, rock on Islington, middle class haven and BFing capital of England!

I dont' think so - by day 10 most new mums have given up.

So after a week and a half an ebf is in a minority....

by 6 mths only 1% of mums are ebf...

From 6 mths, mums start to fall off bf-ing at all, and people start to ask when you will stop.

I know one other full term feeding mum, who fed to 3 years 7 months... DD is 4 in June and still feeding... I dont' have a peer... how sad is that?

WWC - did you not read my earlier post?? The first couple of weeks are the hardest by far. Of course that's the time women are most likely to give up feeding exclusively! 10 days of the sort of pain I was in would be more than enough for anybody.

I am so sick of hearing about 'mixed feeding'. My son gets one ff a day, a leftover from the early days when he was losing weight and I was wild with anxiety. At the time, I honestly thought I was losing my mind, not helped when I posted on MN and, being in a state, got into an argument because I was angry and frightened when someone mentioned weightloss could be a sign of severe illness. I was told I would later be embarrassed by what I wrote on that thread, but to be truthful, looking back I am horrified by some of what was said to me e.g. that I was a lunatic, and 'unhinged'. (duh, yeah).

I think my extreme reaction to the weight loss was because I was terrified of losing bfing. It was absolutely unthinkable to me that my son would be bottlefed. I was a 15 on that scale of 1-10 regarding determination to bf, and I viewed my difficulties (through the prism of those early hormones and the haze of exhaustion and pain) as a terrible indictment of me as a mother - I felt the most incredible, excruciating guilt and sense of failure. I also experienced terrible anxiety that something was terribly wrong with him as a result of bfing not working, which I am still battling now...

The day I fed my son ff, I felt like I was feeding him arsenic.. and yet I knew that I had to get sleep as I was teetering so close to the brink (not to mind the fact I was so worried about his weightloss).

How ridiculous! Do people not realise when they post about ff in such extreme and unbalanced ways that new mothers can be stupidly, ridiculously fragile about their choices? What need is there to make people feel such guilt, experience such pain? I had never considered using formula, but God, I needed to use it when I did. All this trash about selfishness! It would have been utterly selfish for me to press on with bfing no matter what when it was exhausting me to the point of compromising my mental health, just out of some misguided need to live up to my pre-pregnancy ideals.

6 weeks later, he has this one feed and 10-12 breastfeeds of 30-40 minutes a day. And what? I am not breastfeeding because he has a few lousy ounces of formula? Yet I feel the shame of being a 'mixed feeder' which my rational brain tells me is nonsense, but threads like this seem to affirm.

Mrsbean - FWIW, I don't personally find mixed feeding a dirty term and if anyone bands it around meaning to offend I would refuse to take offence. That's by the by anyhow.

Your story exemplifies perfectly what I mean when I say that in this country we are way too precious about exclusive b/f, and whether we will consider someone to be a breastfeeder or not. I have always said that formula (and nipple shields - another evil apparently) saved my breastfeeding. Yes my milk supply went down and down, but it was that or nothing.

People talk about the virgin gut, but again if it's a choice between a little formula or ending up with all formula I know what I'd choose. My DS had much much more formula than yours btw - it sounds like you did an amazing job!

I understand exactly what you mean when you say you felt like you were poisoning your baby. I spent weeks and weeks absolutely convinced my DS would die in the night because I was giving him a night time formula feed. That's how much it messed with my head.

"when I say that in this country we are way too precious about exclusive b/f, and whether we will consider someone to be a breastfeeder or not."

FFS - nobody here or anywhere else is arguing that bf mothers who give formula are 'not breastfeeding'! Where does this come from! If you give your baby your own milk and formula milk you are 'mixed feeding'. This is just a factual term, not a pejorative one or one which implies any sort of moral judgement.

We're not 'way too precious about exclusive bf'. The vast majority of bf babies are having formula - mostly they're given it unnecessarily in response to bf problems that could actually be sorted out with the right sort of advice and support. Yes, occasionally formula top ups are useful and necessary - but more often than not they do more harm to breastfeeding than good.

You have to acknowledge BOTH the risks and the benefits this so mums can make an informed choice as to whether they want to give their baby formula or carry on trying to exclusively breastfeed. It's not up to you to decide whether it's ok to give formula - to say 'it doesn't matter if a baby is mixed fed'. It's down to the individual mum to make that decision for her and her baby based on the facts (as far as they are known), and her own personal situation.

mrsbean78, I actually think I remember that thread. Not mumsnets finest hour. It caused me to hide the breastfeeding topic. I took quite a beating and got into a bit of trouble with "a regular" for trying to be supportive.

Now, I shall go and hide this thread.

"think telling women that they are being selfish and risking their baby's health is pretty close to haranguing, abusing and insulting those who don't (or can't). FWIW, I can't understand anyone who doesn't even try, although I'm sure they have their reasons. "

Oh my god. Where is the brick wall so I can bang my head against it?

Who are you talking about/to?

Who here would justify women being told they are 'selfish' for not breastfeeding?

"First off, I just don't buy that smoking and ff are in anyway equal in the health risks they pose.

Well no, neither do I! I didn't say they were equivalent. I referred to the health campaigns against smoking to make a point about health promotion strategies. Two different things. Go back and read my post properly.

"Secondly, the premise that ff is the norm is born out by the stats you yourself have quoted. "

Yes. It is the social norm. There is nothing controversial about this statement. It can't be argued with. It's a fact. Most babies in the UK are not breastfed for more than a few weeks.

"You may well be outraged that ff is considered acceptable by most women"

Where do I express 'outrage'? Where have I used emotive language or expressed anger that most women use formula?

"I'm not only a mother, I'm still a woman in my own right, with my own needs. If that makes me selfish, thick or uneducated, so be it, I can live with it."

Look - at no point have I said or implied that women who use formula are in any way 'selfish' , 'thick' or 'uneducated'?

Seriously - what is going on here?

Just as an aside WWC how are you finding breastfeeding a todler whilst heavily pregnant? And will you tandem feed whenyour new baby is born?

Oh standanddeliver I think you need to go back and read your posts!

I dont back all this "MAY" evidence as its a "MAY" and not a guarantee, but because I dont back this "research, I apparently have no understanding of it, have lack a lack of intellect Oh and narrow minded to add to the few you have stated! etc.... (charming aren't you )

you are also come across in your posts to be condescending and single minded.

Alcohol and also smoking are PROVEN to be harmful to the baby in pregnancy and after birth, PUTTING a baby on their belly has been PROVEN to be harmful to the baby due to suffocation, BF to help protect against SIDS cannot be PROVEN as simply no one yet has found a cause as to why SIDS happen, so therefore in my and many others opinions its a "MAY" AND NOTHING CONCLUSIVE TO BACK IT EITHER WAY!

whats so hard about understanding that!, Yes I know exactly why, it because you can only see one side and not both! simples!

Thanks for the support!

standanddeliver re: "You have to acknowledge BOTH the risks and the benefits this so mums can make an informed choice as to whether they want to give their baby formula or carry on trying to exclusively breastfeed. It's not up to you to decide whether it's ok to give formula - to say 'it doesn't matter if a baby is mixed fed'. It's down to the individual mum to make that decision for her and her baby based on the facts (as far as they are known), and her own personal situation. "

I absolutely agree that new mums need more support - my problems began with a particularly difficult midwife on the postnatal ward, I can see that now in retrospect - BUT the idea of an "informed choice" is a moot one when you are dealing with an exhausted, over-emotional new mum.

I knew I should feed regularly in those early days to bring in my milk, but following a traumatic birth (where my baby turned blue, and I suspect, was himself in pain after the rotational forceps delivery) and being told the latch was "great" despite it feeling like razorblades (he had tongue tie, too!), the part of my brain dealing with research statistics, the learning I had done pre-birth at baby cafes and from reading books and researching online - what use was it?

The transition to motherhood is a huge one for most people. I'd wager it is a time when most women have very little confidence in whatever they have 'learned' and the mammalian instinct is to ensure that the baby gets sufficient nutrition. If your baby is losing weight and oversleeping, no amount of assurance that it's okay to starve him because the breastmilk will sort itself out is going to wash.

And what are these risks? Honestly, seriously, what is the risk of a formula top up? Increased ear infections, possibly? Potentially a more sensitive gut, some diarrheoa? The "risks" of early weaning is really a risk of a woman choosing ff as an easier option than bf, isn't it? What are the long-term risks of a woman having PND? I have worked in Child and Adolescent Mental Health and PND can have far-reaching effects on a whole family.

The research on mixed feeding is weak, and not all of it supports any risk e.g. scariatti et al, 1997's longitudinal study on infant morbiditiy in the US suggested no increased risk of diarrheoa, ear infection or morbidity for mixed feeders compared to exclusive bfers. As cory pointed out, it may also be an unknown factor where it is included in studies because, culturally, it is considered irrelevant.