Am I being unreasonable .. about sleep

[TotsDaddy]

We have twins, now aged 2y10m and a little girl aged 11m.
The twins didn't sleep through the night until they were a year old, both had a 10pm and 4am feed. The 10pm feed continued untill they were over 2, I was exhausted. At the time my wife declared that she didn't believe in sleep training techniques, and there was nothing we could do except grin and bear it. It was if fact so bad, that that the constant waking damaged my eyesight ( No I'm serious, the consultant said, even before I mentioned our situation, "This sort of damage to the cornea is caused by stress and continued sudden waking")

When we had the little girl I hoped we could do better. She is now almost 1, and has been cuddled/fed to sleep on a regular basis. Again any form of sleep training has been rejected outright. She still feeds at 10pm and 5am, and for the last week has spent 2am until 4am awake while been cuddled back to sleep.

I'm told that this is all just normal and if I really asked people in private they would admit it was quite typical.

So.. am I being unreasonable about sleep?

[Maria2007loveshersleep]

MegBusset, what on earth do you mean 'biologically programmed to wake through the night'? What is this biological program? What you're referring to is a hypothesis, a theory (a half-baked theory btw with loads of ideology behind it). Also, what do pre-historic societies & cave-people have to do with our discussion here?

When we talk about biological programming we can include things like breathing eating etc. Not waking through the night continuously for cuddles & milk. The reason for that (at 1 year, NOT during the first months) is very simple. Habit. If a parent wants to go along with it, fine. If not, there are ways (gentle ways, harsher ways, in between ways, whatever) to change this habit. That's all it is. Habit. Children can learn different habits that (IMO) are healthier for them both emotionally & physically.

...And btw what about all the babies who do sleep through? Have they somehow overriden this biological program?

[Maria2007loveshersleep]

Lenin, sure agreed A three month old who wakes in the night is different though to a 1 year old etc.

[juuule]

Maria it worked for you. You are all happier for it. That's great. But there are some people who believe that it will work for all babies. It doesn't. And it's not that some parent's haven't tried. Sleep training as described here doesn't work for some.

After being forced to find other ways of dealing with night wakefulness we found that we preferred a more relaxed approach and had more success with our children that way.

I just wanted to let people know that it may not work and it's not to blame themselves if it doesn't.

[juuule]

Maria it worked for you. You are all happier for it. That's great. But there are some people who believe that it will work for all babies. It doesn't. And it's not that some parent's haven't tried. Sleep training as described here doesn't work for some.

After being forced to find other ways of dealing with night wakefulness we found that we preferred a more relaxed approach and had more success with our children that way.

I just wanted to let people know that it may not work and it's not to blame themselves if it doesn't.

[juuule]

Never in front of the children, though

[Maria2007loveshersleep]

OK I accept that sleep training may not work for all children. I can't presume to know what works for all children. After all, I have 1 child only (certainly not 9! Respect to you ). I speak from my own experience & that of friends (their stories seem to confirm what I think, that children can be helped to sleep better).

I accept that some children may just be exceptionally bad sleepers, but even in those cases there can certainly be an improvement with sleep training (again, I stress, either gentle / less gentle / whatever) e.g. with using a bedtime routine, being consistent about sleep associations, being quiet & calm at nighttime etc. They may still wake up in some cases, of course that may be true for some- and actually all children do wake from time to time. But I tend to believe that in cases where toddlers wake consistently, night after night, more than once or twice a night & can't settle back easily, it tends to be that the parents have gone along with it. I may be wrong though.

[Maria2007loveshersleep]

Starlight, first of all, 8 hours sleep which is broken is not the same quality sleep with 8 hours unbroken sleep. Second, it's not possible for all parents to go to sleep at 7 pm (e.g.) & wake at 4.00 & still go about their normal business.

[juuule]

Maybe the parents have gone along with it - not a bad option if the alternative is an hyssterical, retching, totally distressed baby/toddler for hours night after night after night who gets up exhausted as does everyone else because they've been kept awake by the noise.

Of course, it could be continued relentlessly until the child gave up but we thought that might be a step too far and preferred not to take it that far.

[MegBusset]

I don't see what's so hard to understand. Small children wake a lot at night... it's what they do. If they didn't then we wouldn't need a topic on it!

Apart from in extreme cases then it's very recent societal changes that have pathologised infant sleep patterns. (A baby that co-sleeps and feeds on demand during the night is, I imagine, quite happy that its emotional and physical needs are being met!) And so 'sleep training' methods have been invented that condition the child out of its default sleeping patterns.

Again, I reiterate that I am not against sleep training. But the idea that those who choose to try to meet their child's needs by co-sleeping/night feeding on demand are somehow 'lazy parents' or endorsing 'bad habits' is daft. It's just a different way of dealing with the situation.

[CoteDAzur]

Are you seriously recommending that an adult go to bed at 7 PM rather than sleep train?

[Maria2007loveshersleep]

I actually disagree, I think it's meeting children's needs to help them learn to self settle. I really believe that. I would never do something that I felt wasn't responding to my child's needs. I find it quite offensive actually to suggest that those who do sleep training do it purely for themselves despite realizing it's bad for their children. Yes I was exhausted from sleep deprivation. But so was my DS! I wouldn't put him through something which I felt was damaging to him just for my own sleep. It had to be a balance of both our needs unless I just wouldn't do it.

Juuule, yikes, what you describe sounds very difficult indeed! I also wouldn't go on with sleep training in that situation, I'm not insane.

[juuule]

Why not?

[thesecondcocking]

the straw that broke this camels back was our darling daughter waking up and doing full nursery ryhme recitals (in our bed) bouncing (on the bed/pillows whilst we tried to ignore her) her switching lamps on/climbing over the end of the bed and clip clopping round our room in my shoes-even in our bed she didn't sleep...
i don't think anyone is insinuating that people who co-sleep are lazy or feed on demand are lazy-if mine hadn't decided to stop feeding then we'd have gladly fed her back to sleep-when we went to fetch her milk/water she'd complain about the cup,the temperature etc etc.
now she sleeps,we HAD to train her/ignore her or i'd have ebayed the little sod! we are all much happier (including her) since we did this.

[Maria2007loveshersleep]

Juuuule, are you asking me?

[juuule]

Not asking you, maria.

I was responding to cote.

[Maria2007loveshersleep]

Starlight, of course you wouldn't sleep train a newborn though. No-one would suggest that. TBH I wouldn't suggest sleep training to anyone unless as a very last resort.

Not sure in what way you think sleep training is 'damaging'? In what circumstances? 'Damaging' in what way? It's quite a strong thing to say you know. I would be interested to hearing what you think about it.

[CoteDAzur]

An almost 1 yr old is not a "tiny baby". She is almost a toddler. A child who is more than able to go 12 hours without a feed, but who has not yet learned how.

What you are advocating is self-flaggelation. Changing parents' lives, pretty much erasing their adult time (evenings), so that baby can continue with his unnecessary habit. "Go to bed at 7 PM", indeed. WHY?!? Isn't it much better that baby learns to sleep through the night?