genuine question about the naughty step/time out

[lucyellensmum]

OK - so it works? I guess it does because everyone seems to be doing it but i honestly don't get it. So its my perception that im questioning here instead of the concept itself. I don't disagree or agree with the naughty step, im genuinely interested.

Firstly, does a young child really understand this? If you stick a small toddler on the naughty step - do they REALLY understand why they are there? As in, do they spend that time reflecting and then behave better, or do they just sit there because angry mummy put them there so best they stay there - their little minds start to wander and they forget about being naughty/having the tantrum. (OK so that works but is that what the baby bible bashers want us to believe?)

Secondly: A tantruming, possibly older toddler, are they actually going to stay there? Seriously, if the child is being that bad, they are going to just keep getting off the step, no reflection in that - i guess if they sit compliantly on the step then i wonder if it is a game to them?

I have used the naughty step with DD, at first it sort of worked, but it genuinely upset her or she got bored and wandered off. I don't bother now.

I tend to parent instinctively and dont really use any techniques - i would say my DD is slightly spoilt (thats partly DPs fault and partly mine for different reasons), but generally a well behaved little girl.

Enlighten me?

[ruddynorah]

i don't like the whole naughty step thing either. i've read alfie kohn and see a lot of sense in what he says.

call me liberal if you like..but i just don't see certain behaviour that dd and other toddlers do as being naughty behaviour, while other people do.

i try really hard to think how dd thinks and steer her in a way she'll understand. it makes me cringe when mum friends plonk a child in a 'naughty corner' or whatever when they're at my house or at toddler group.

[VictorianSqualor]

TBGP, I wasn't suggesting that by telling him the cat was hurt he would stop doing it, but learn empathy and regret, therefore if he were to say sorry it was from the heart rather than because it got him out of time out.

To stop him dong it he needs to learn why he shouldn't though, and, IMO, a threat of punishment isn't always the best way. Do you want your children to grow up and not commit crime because they know it's wrong and don't want to do it or because they are afraid of prison? I'd prefer the former, but take the latter if it's the only choice I have.

(I'm not suggesting for a second that your boys will end up in jail btw, just trying to make a comparison)

[ThatBigGermanPrison]

I see your point, but to be honest I'm just as happy with them being scared of jail if I can't guarantee they will stop because it's wrong.

And given the speeding statistics on roads with no police car visible compared to those with roads with a police car visible, I'd say the majority of the population obeys out of fear.

[VictorianSqualor]

boozybird, you said

"i have tried the 'giving injured party attention' thing and have found that doesn't work if you're in a public situation with kids you don't know who often don't want your attention (they are upset and want their parents, not some strange woman whose kid is trying to beat them up!), so have given up on that. so i will take him out of the sandpit (off the slide, whatever), explain that i don't like him hitting, big frowns all round, and... then what???? that enough? he'll do it again 10 mins later, especially if another kid gets too close to him (he likes his space!)."

If the child does not want your attention you apologise to the parent, go and tell the parent you're very sorry your son behaved that way and let him see it. Warn him that as he is at a park he has to play nicely with the other children or you'll both be going home, because their are Rules, and in the park one of the Rules is no hitting.
If he hits again take him home. If somebody can't do something properly (like drive for example) then they are not allowed to do it, I think that is totally different from the naughty step type scenario.

[RuthT]

Have a 3 yr old and have used it a few times - doesn't need to be a step. Tends to be when she has genuinely done something mean deliberately like pinch, push bite etc not said sorry and done it again.

Have to say she rarely needs this and when she went through a spate of it I used it as a few mins for me to workout why she was doing it -e.g. why did she feel it was the only way of getting attention. This usually meant I could head it off next time and or do somthing to stop future incidents.

Found distraction best usually involving our cat 'Isn't that ... over there' stops her dead in her tracks and she forgets what she was about to do!

[tori32]

I think it does work- have used it for 3 toddlers from 18mths. Yes the behaviour does stop, maybe not through understanding,but through consequences for certain undesired actions.
Its learning through response x i.e. hitting results in y i.e being alone. No different than constantly removing a child from plug sockets/wires etc, eventually the penny drops and the behaviour stops. My 2.6yo is able to tell me what she did wrong and has been able to since 2yo.
In the same way she will put her head down in shame when she is told off for something she knows she shouldn't have done.

[VictorianSqualor]

Surely the child should stop because it is wrong though tori? Not because it doesn't want punishment?

[ThatBigGermanPrison]

They should, VS, and they often don't. People sometimes do the wrong thing because they want to, they know it's wrong, and they do it anyway. Some children are simply not as compliant and eager to please as others.

[VictorianSqualor]

Is that not dependant on how serious the behaviour is though?

Like you mentioned earlier, less people speed when there is a police presence, probably because many of the public believe speeding isn't that bad in terms of law breaking, most people do not commit murder, or rape, or burglary etc because they know it's wrong rather than because they are worried about prison.

With many things children do (with my eldest two and other children I've been close to anyway) the child simply doesn't see it as bad more fun, or interesting, so in that instance I don't think punishment is fair, just education as why it is wrong even though it seems to be soemthing they want to do.

[ThatBigGermanPrison]

But what about when they know why it's wrong and do it anyway?

Ds1 could give me detailed essays on why it's wrong to go into my bedroom, get the make up out from under my bed, and play with it, but until I started punishing him for doing it, it was a daily occurrence. Likewise pouring shampoo down the sink.

I could rattle on about "Expensive, makes mummy sad, not nice to break people's things, how would you like it if someone broke your things?" but he really didn't care enough for it to stop him. Something that was important to me was not important to him, and I'm not going to take a soft line on it just because he didn't see what all the fuss was about.

[rebelmum1]

It's been useless for us, my dd kept getting off and I kept putting her back on and we were there for ages and ages and it didn't really resolve anything, then she sat down and said sorry straight away in a not sorry way. Eventually she would just sit there quite happily and then say 'can I go now'?, Sometimes she would just take herself off there and just sit there on her own accord. Any tantrum was just hopeless she wailed and screamed and wouldn't get on.

I just put her in her room now for a cool off and take a favourite toy away if she misbehaves. She hates having anything taken off her so this seems to work. I also have a star chart and work on specific things.

[VictorianSqualor]

I would say put your make-up elsewhere until they were old enough to consider how they would feel if you had ruined something of theirs, probably with removal of one of their favourite toys/books etc.
If they make a mess with something, they clean it, if they break something of yours, something of theirs is removed, I just can't see how sitting a child on a step for however many minutes relates to wrecking make-up.
I'm not against punishment for bad behaviour, just think there are better ways to teach a child that what they are doing is wrong, rather than making them fearful of misbehaving iyswim.

[rebelmum1]

ha ha my dd is never fearful of misbehaving, i hardly think a naugty step strikes fear into children, quite the opposite for us it was just amusement for her.

[rebelmum1]

I agree that it can be just easier to remove tempting items, especially if you are getting no where.

[DaphneMoon]

I think a good/naughty chart works best. At least then when they are actually good you can reward them. We have never used the naughty step for my DS and now that he is 8 it would never work, he would just stomp off! However, to get a sad face on a chart seems to really hit home. All children like praise and would much rather see happy faces on a chart for being good.

[snowleopard]

Never done it - just instinctively feel that DS would not see it as undesirable and wouldn't care. At the height of his toddler tantrum phase we would take him for time out with one of us, to an empty/quite dark room and sit quietly, and he would be bored and want to get out so he'd have to calm down (though it could take a while).

I think the naughty step is a bit mystifying for some children and I don't like the way it's not connected to what they've done. Now he's older (3) I try to make consequences for DS linked to what he's done, eg if he torments the cat he has to come and stroke her nicely and say sorry, if he throws food he has to help to clear it up etc. Usually has a similar calming-down effect too.

[rebelmum1]

I have got a reward chart, but didn't have a negative on there just stars haven't thought about the sad happy face idea, might be more effective, I was just using plain bribery.

[VictorianSqualor]

Prime example, DD has been told time and time again about keeping her room tidy.
I have tried helping by giving her a list of what she needs to check, she has been given extra storage, warnings, help etc.

I haver just been upstairs and she has lied to me three times this morning about it being tidy, outright lies, not just things she hasn't seen or aren't up to standard.

What would be the point in putting her on the step? Instead I have now swapped her and DS's rooms round. She has lost the privilege of the the large room and bunkbeds.

[ThatBigGermanPrison]

Ok I see your point, and you seem to take the same sort of approach I do - ds1 was abominably behaved in town yesterday - he has lost the privilige of taking his scooter out when we go out because I can't trust him to do what I need him to do (stop when told to, come back whe told to)

[Gateau]

What's wrong with kids being sent to their room nowadays? Or is that going to have some sort of longlasting, damaging effect on them, like everything else seems to have these days?
I used to be sent to mine and I HATED it, seeing it as the worst punishment. Of course I didn't have a tv and dvd player, playstation, computer, blah blah blah...

[Pitchounette]

Message withdrawn

[kiskidee]

"I could rattle on about "Expensive, makes mummy sad, not nice to break people's things, how would you like it if someone broke your things?""

See, I wouldn't advocate this approach either. It is as useless, IME, as the naughty step.

Keep it simple like: 'Don't touch, it is mummy's'. If they attempt to reach for it again, repeat. Do not repeat ad nauseum. If it looks like it will become a game, move the kid, not the object as they have to learn to respect things where ever they are, who so ever it belongs to.

Sometimes they kick off. If they do, could it be another reason, hunger, boredom, tiredness. Sometimes the trigger is not related to the issue at hand.

[tweeni]

I think it only works with younger children say between 2.5 and 4. depends on the child but younger than 2.5 and they don't really get it.

[goodasgold]

I prefer just to teach by example.

I try to be respectful to them.

[VampireSlayer]

I have spoken to police officers who arrest incredulous youths, who cannot quite believe that if they don't comply with what they have been asked to do, compliance may be forced upon them.

I have spoken to youth offending workers and probation officers who have stated that most of their clients have a and you can't stop me attitude, and an argumentative contempt for authority.

And I have decided I'd rather be horribly unfair and didactorial, ignore Alfie Kohn completely and do my level best to make sure my boys don't grow up to be law breakers.

Just to clarify, Alife Kohn does not suggest a you can't stop me attitude or a contempt for authority,