LL came into my garden and removed my bird feeders

[goodoldsussexbythesea]

My landlady lives locally and often drives past my house. Early this morning, I was in my front garden, filling my bird feeders, and she pulled over and said that the advice from the RSPB is not to feed birds from feeders any more.

I told her that actually, the advice is not to feed them seeds and peanuts between May-October this year and I'm planning on following the advice so I was just using up the last of my seed now as it's not May yet.

She got really defensive and said "well, I just think it's important to follow the advice so I'd rather you didn't do it, please take the feeders down!!" which really annoyed me so I said, well it's not May yet so no, and anyway the advice is that you can feed them (small amounts of) mealworm and suet balls after May so I will be doing that, and she didn't say anything else, just drove off.

This really wound me up and I was annoyed for the rest of the day, took the kids out to a farm park and I arrived home an hour ago, and my feeders have gone out of my garden!!!

I checked my ring doorbell and she's bloody come into the garden, armed with a plastic carrier bag, removed my feeders and taken them away!!

I rang her three times back to back and she wouldn't pick up, so I whatsapped her and it immediately went to two blue ticks. I said - "Please return my bird feeders immediately, they are my property and you had no right to take them. I am following the advice but even if I was not, you still have no right to take my things."

After half an hour she replied "I am not currently allowing tenants to use bird feeders at my properties and have asked that they all be removed. I was passing so I removed yours for you, they are in safe keeping and will be returned in October"

My AIBU is not about who was in the right because I bloody well know I am, but whether or not I should call the police. I spoke to my neighbour about it and she said I shouldn't and that I should just replace them and remove the cost from the rent. She says she's obviously nuts and I shouldn't risk falling out with her

YABU - Don't call police, replace and charge her or do something else
YANBU - Call the police, report her for theft, and give them the doorbell footage.

No, you're reading "permanently deprive" far too literally - even within the 4 corners of the Act (and without getting into caselaw).

This would likely still constitue theft, despite the stated intend to eventually return the property, by virtue of 6(1) of the Act.

Mumsnet would really benefit from a feature that requires user to read, at bare minimum, the OP's posts before they post a reply.

It is theft because she has taken goods without consent. It's irrelevant that she plans to return them in October, it's still theft.
From Citizens Advice -
. In common law the definition of theft is that someone has taken and kept property without the consent of the rightful owner. In addition it must be clear that the person who took the property did so with the intention of depriving the person who is the rightful owner.

It wouldn't. Every body knows what theft is, they're just deliberately obfuscating.

Yes. The OP could accuse her landlord of theft.
No. The police will have no part in it.
Yes. The landlord was out of order doing what she did.

The OP can only register her Landlord interfering with her enjoyment and privacy by informing her. Email her.
Then escalating to the Council.

Nope.

"Taking Without Owners Consnet" type offences are for short term, unauthorized taking or borrowing. There's no precise cut-off but if we're talking about taking and refusing to return a motor vehicle for a number of months, then we're very likely in theft territory.

You cannot dictate that your tenants do or don’t do anything in THEIR HOME!!

Fucks sake there are some shitty landlords! You can stick it in the contract all you like but it’s not legal. It’s not ok and it’s not enforceable.

It’s about time there was better regulation on these cowboy landlords!

No there is not. Ive had bird feeders for years and never had a rat problem. And yes I do know that as there is cameras covering them 24hr a day.

It’s not difficult. Anti climb feeders with a baffle to stop rats and squirrels climbing up. A tray to catch the falling seed so little to no seed falls on the floor. And good metal small bird feeders.
Never once had a problem with rodents

"intend to permanently deprive the owner" isnt quite as completely simple as that sounds, even though technically it is the case for this example.

If she let someone else use the property while holding it, she would be pushing it to theft if anything happened to the property as a result even if she didn't intend it to happen. And if she causes damage recklessly or maliciously that would then be theft. And if she attaches any condition on returning at all, so for example says "ok I will return it but only if you dont use them until October", it would then turn into theft immediately. OP should try and get her to say this, then get the police involved.

It is also up to the police to determine anyway regardless of any of this, not the OP. And they might visit to establish the facts, something the landlady might not want neighbours to see - and serves her right if it happened even if they have to report back to OP it isnt theft once they have visited.

As it stands it is still a little bit beyond "overstepped". It's still not legal, it just doesn't cross to criminal yet. The OP needs to send a letter before action, and sue at least.

For all the people suggesting to spread the food on the ground or use improvised solutions such as old saucers, the advice is to STOP using feeders with a horizontal element such as tables and window feeders. Vertical feeders like it sounds like OP had, are less risky and can still be used with caution (it's the spilled food going from bird to bird that is the infection risk - horizontal feeders cause cross contamination by design)

I really feel for you OP. I have a nature friendly garden that is my pride and joy and would feel so violated and angry if someone unlawfully came and removed an element of it, especially if they did it because they misunderstood some scientific information that I actually had a better handle on myself.

I expect this would be considered theft regardless of whether the LL re-uses the feeder or damages it. She's essentially assuming the rights on an owner to frustrate the OP's ability to use and enjoy them, for a period of 6+ months (and a lot of people get most of their enjoyment from a bird feeder over the summer).

It's an annoying part of the law, everyday logic says you are correct. But the courts are not happy to apply it, and consider it would cause more of a mess and bring in too many things that should be dealt with through civil law.

It is along a similar line to R v Lloyd, and although the time may have been a lot less with that, the ruling ignored the time entirely and made it clear borrowing without consent can be become theft if done with the intention to permanently deprive, as long as the intention was to return it in a state where it had lost its "goodness, virtue or practical value".

Theft is tied to this concept, refusing to return it alone as long as you have a date you will return it probably won't trigger theft without other actions taken.

But I could be wrong, it is what I thought. Like I said, it's up the police to decide if they want to investigate further anyway, let them and see.

Where I live she has broken SO SO many rules as a landlady by stopping to discipline you, entering the property, virtually spying on what you're doing, etc

I'd be reporting this to whatever tribunal alternative you have there and look for another rental as she is about to make life hell.

People do love flogging dead horses around here.
Comes with the Territory. Best to read replies that actually address the facts of your post, that's not to say only listen to posters that agree with you but it's clear some aren't bothering to read it or they're also landlords and want to give you a lecture as well because while they rent the property they still want to control it.
Ignore all the confetti that's is unhelpful. Some people just like to jump on board.

Where I live landlords cannot watch what you do at home and stop in to ask you not to. Or turn up and enter the property. It's a fineable offence. They don't get to lease a property to be someone's home yet spy on them. Being a landlord isn't for everyone, it isn't for your landlord or many who have posted on this thread.

As I’ve mentioned that’s not what ‘intent to permanently deprive’ means, it’ means assuming the rights of the owner and acting as if it was your property. Like helping yourself to something in your tenant’s garden.

Otherwise your landlord, or anyone, can just take your car without your permission as long as they leave a note saying they will bring it back in October. Not theft is it, because they are bringing it back.

Regardless of the changes, due to the extreme shortage of rental housing and really safe local authority housing for life, she is vulnerable as a single mother.

Yes, the LL is batshit. But it is madness to go to war with her.

This view (and the behaviour of OPs landlord) is absolutely the reason that the private rented sector has been regulated to within an inch of its life. There must be a better power balance between landlord and tenant otherwise there will be no private rented sector left. Again I say this as someone who has worked in this sector for a very long time and has seem the damage that attitudes like this cause.

The answer to your question is she can find a better landlord and move elsewhere should she choose to do so.

Alternatively, OP can hold on until late 2026 when the landlord will have to join a redress scheme and then report - this sort of thing is exactly what redress schemes are for - to ensure landlords understand clearly what the law allows them to do and what it doesn't. Hint - it doesn't allow them to enter a property they are renting out without giving the correct notice and obtaining permission and it doesn't allow them to remove tenants' belongings that they don't like.

The issue is with bird feeders that have bacteria on them. I think I would just throw some seed on the ground every day. That’s what I’m doing to avoid complaints. We get loads of birds in the garden. Try the Merlin Bird App, it’s free and very good x

Id be pissed off too,but sit tight for now until the laws and regulations change in a week or so because she could make your life difficult at the moment. You could be evicted and be homeless with children. She sounds batshit but wait it out

The answer to your question is she can find a better landlord and move elsewhere should she choose to do so.

But as you know (due to your experience in this area) @bigdecisionstomake, there is a dearth of private housing because private landlords have left in droves due to the increase of regulations and decrease in profits due to additional taxes and requirements. So all very well saying 'Move'. But if she can't move she should probably keep her head down.

@goodoldsussexbythesea I would request an up to date contract with the new "rules" in place, then request that she return your property under the provision that you'll no longer use them in your garden. Put it up in your neighbours garden for a few weeks until she forgets and then put them back 😂😂

@Slightyamusedandsilly to be fair I agree with you. I wasn't suggesting that that OP do this, merely answering the question posed by PP that suggested there wasn't anything at all the OP could do that wouldn't end up with her being evicted which isn't true.

I work for a number of landlords all of whom are far too professional to do anything like the OPs landlady has done here but in 20 years I've seen their businesses become less profitable and more onerous to run due to the reputational damage caused by people like this.

The attitude that a small minority of landlords take, that they can do whatever they like to their tenants because they can't do anything about it for fear of eviction, is reprehensible. The vast majority of responsible landlords are damaged by the actions of a few, the OPs landlady being one.

She’s BVU. Is her point that she doesn’t want you feeding at all or between those months? Seems an extreme reaction over bird health! If she cared so much she’d know the advice more accurately

you are in a tricky position. I’d insist on their return and say she can check that they aren’t hanging as she passes and then I’d ground feed

Cancel the cheque.

We're all used to people not reading follow-up posts but it seems that people can't even be bothered to read the original post.

OP KNOWS ABOUT THE RSPB GUIDANCE AND WAS PLANNING TO FOLLOW IT.

It is also an absolute irrelevance. It is zero to do with the landlady whether or not OP choses to follow the guidance of a wildlife organisation. She has no legal right to enter the property or garden as she feels like, and has stolen her tennant's possessions.

R v Lloyd was taking something for hours, not many months.

By taking the property and refusing to return it for such a long period, the LL is likely disposing of the OP's rights to it (the loss in value is that OP might reasonably feel she needs to buy a new one).

It isn't comparable.