Should teachers be allowed to speak to parents as they are spoken to?

[ProudCat]

Following on from a discussion on another thread. Can you imagine greeting the parent of a disruptive child and saying 'Oi, shithead, you smell like cheese.' Alternatively, in one of those conversations where a parent has complained because you've embarrassed little Johnny when they turned up to your lesson late with no book, no pen and no apparent interest in actually being there 'Well, the reason your darling is failing hard is because they literally don't give a crap and you've sent them that message, so if you want them to get anything out of school, and not be like you on universal credit living off chicken nuggets, maybe you should stop complaining about us and take a long hard look at your own parenting technique, that's if you can get off your back long enough to actually focus on anything that's not your latest deadbeat boyfriend.'

You see, this is what teachers actually know. We can wrap it up any way people want. We can believe (and many of us do) that all behaviour is an attempt to communicate. And as nice as it might be to offer the 80 billion excuses available at any given time, what the kids are communicating to us is that their parents are ridiculously ill-equipped to be actual parents. Oddly, I don't blame them for this. Huge spikes in poverty. Serious addiction issues. Overcrowded housing. Limited access to MH provision. People are drowning. But you know what? We (teachers) are not the enemy.

Why is it that parents and carers find it so hard to work with us? I'm from a really terrible background, don't own my own house, am even partial to a cut-price Spoons afternoon deal, so what gives? How did we get here? Why are we at each others throats? What would make a genuine difference?

Provide copies = take clear photo on your phone and save as an img or pdf.

Complete a Google form = no finding an envelope, going to the post office or finding a post box, no paying to post a form with no guarantee it'll get there, just typing in your name, email, phone number, address and the name and date of birth of your kid.

An online form can be translated automatically, enlarged or read out loud for somebody with a different first language, literacy issues (although name, address and date of birth are normally the things that the overwhelming majority are able to manage) or unable to see a paper form clearly enough to fill it in and complete all the other stages of posting it or travelling several miles to hand it in at the office.

And the reason why the person handling the admissions applications is 'anonymous'? Because they are fed up to the back teeth of applicants lying about what has been said to them on the phone, having people turn up at Reception and lie about what they've apparently said, threaten them and/or track them down at their home address to chuck paint stripper over their front door or loiter around the school gates or staff car park at 6.40am (or 5pm in winter) waiting for them - and then to chase them down the street demanding to know why their child hasn't been given a place yet.

When somebody has been told that unless they give that child a place over and above everybody else 'I'll fuck you right up, bitch' and gone on to handle the application correctly and professionally, it's nothing to do with asking for a couple of attachments that can be sent either as an attachment or uploaded from the phone that's already being used to complete the application that they've then gone on to do the same to teaching staff.

Youre not wrong.
anything customer facing is dire and short of staff, Vets, GP, Pharmacists, retail workers you name it.

And don’t forget that the handwritten paper forms are likely to be partly illegible - loads of room for errors which could mean the school having incorrect phone numbers, email addresses etc on the system.
With electronic forms there are far fewer errors. It’s just not practical to go back to paper forms.
However many schools will allow paper forms in certain circumstances if it’s clear the parent has no digital access.

I work in primary and I can tell you, I'm despairing at things from both sides at the moment. Kids who lack respect and who spoil the school experience for others with parents attached who see no problem with this.... but also teachers who profess to understand the needs of various children in one breath but have no qualms about brushing various kids off and effectively telling them to "grow up and stop causing problems" in another. I've recently entered the phase where I'm seeing things from a parent's point of view too and it has been really eye opening.

One of the things that has me struggling for example is the obsession with attendance. There are parents that can't be bothered to get their kids to school but also there's an unhealthy obsession with top attendance nunebers from the side of the school. I understand the pressures come from above and it's not individual teachers (and I'm not management so I can't 100% say what I would do with those pressures if I was) but the way some places deal with it has never sat well with me.

Unfortunately, being the easiest point of contact as staff, we're going to get the thick of the complaints. We're found guilty of stuff just by association. You can't be seen to disagree with policy so, to parents, staff are complicit with anything and everything (and the daft initiatives that come with trying to improve things like attendance when you're completely unable to change anything that would have a meaningful impact in a positive way). It doesn't make for the most comfortable relationship and certainly, as a parent now, I feel more like my child is a number rather than a child. Even having said this, I would rather my child be at the particular school we've chosen than anywhere else so it really feels like it's just trying to make the best of a bad situation at the moment. I think that's enough to make a lot of people (not just the "lazy" ones you talk about who hated school when it was their turn) think, "well, what's the point?". Thing is, I would look to make up for what I feel my child has missed out on being at school in this modern age but others will just check out entirely.

I think the key to most of the issues is to just dump a whole load of the current stuff we have to do at school in favour of community engagement. I think the sense of "community" is dying out and that's why no one gives a crap any more.

The problem, my dear OP is... oh, I can't be bothered. You won't listen to me anyway.

@ProudCat

You’re at the stage where you need to consider whether teaching is the right career for you.

It’s sad but it does have a shelf life.

As a former teacher myself I can see the signs that perhaps you need to pass the baton on for others to take up.

I’m not saying what you’re saying is untrue but the way you are saying it (and speaking to others) is showing a lack of control and of respect which is very important in the profession.

It may be time to call it a day.

Its interesting that you claim to know "what it's really about".
When you really don't know that much.
"The kids who are scared and disruptive and disengaged now" are the ones that the teachers, TAs, pastoral support et al. are the ones spending their own money to bring in food, clothes equipment and equally importantly spending time with these children.
Most of them have not been 'heard' before.

The ones that I and many others had issues with were the middle class children that could do no wrong, the parents where/are managers in companies (often their own), yet many of them seem to forget basic civillty when talking at teachers. Threatening them with complaints to SLT and destroying their career, not forgetting the threats of physical abuse and sometimes attual assault.

But at least you would think that SLT would have the teacher's back with this, but no more often than not they will placate the parent until the parent finally makes threats towards the SLT.

Her reference point is your post. She’s quoting back what you actually said.

Everybody is like this to everybody. At least possibly nice when things go their way but so wound up that if anything goes even slightly wrong the spring snaps and so do they. It’s those stupid little boxes we’re all looking at right now to read mn, we’ve fried our brains, melted our concentration, stopped conversing and so talking things out, we’ve lost patience. It’s not a teacher thing, it’s a human/ screens/ modern society thing

Do you mean can we treat parents the way the children treat us? Yeeeeah... Think that's classed as GBH, lol.

This week I have been scratched, punched, would have had a chair thrown at me if it wasn't for the fact that I have mastered ninja skills that mean I can snatch chairs just as they leave children's hands and place them down. I spent the first week of the Easter holidays in agony after I ended up going flying and landing on my back.

Seriously .... We don't get paid enough for this shit!

How did we get here? Why are we at each others throats? What would make a genuine difference?

What would make a genuine difference would be not trotting out the type of tired stereotypes full of negative assumptions in the OP.

You're being aggressive and attacking people so of course you are getting some aggression back. Hopefully you are not really a teacher because there is nothing constructive about posting like this.

I really don't think you should be a teacher, you sound like you hate it. Get a different job or a better attitude.

Teacher of over 25 years. Grew up in a very low income working class home without any financial support, but lots of emotional support.

I can see what the OP is saying. I have been sworn at multiple times, threatened and (once) physically attacked by parents. Each of these parents has been what I can only describe as the 'non-working class'.

We have a huge number of parents who have no aspirations for their child as they (quote) "Get above themselves."
These parents are the issue.
I shall give a couple of recent examples.

1. Parent came in to 'have a go' because their child wanted them to come to parents evening. Their absolutely lovely daughter has really talent and wanted their dad to see their writing. They are the 6th child. I was told, "I've had 5 kids go through here. Never had to come in before. What makes you think you should tell her (daughter) to see if I can come and see her work?"

2. SEND child that had worked extremely hard in maths, and I had worked out how to properly support thrm, passed. Parents came in shouting in my face that he wasn't supposed to pass. This boy had major issues with reading and writing but with adequate support could understand maths.

I could go on.
This is the problem schools are facing. The majority of the children want to learn, but that aspiration is drained from them. I used to work in a very deprived working class area (near to where I grew up). Parents were so supportive as they wanted their children to do well. This is still the case with most working class parents. That's why I call these parents 'non-working class'.

I taught primary, which i understand is a different kettle of fish to secondary . I struggle to blame the kuds when it is obviously a parenting issue. No equipment, wrong clothing/uniform, being late, not practised their spellings/reading is NOT child's issue and I HATE that schools punish the child, ie children are excluded from a lovely activity because they didn't 'do' something that was outside if their control.

As a foster carer, at times, we have had lots of input with secondary schools and I do believe I am a fair person however there have been times when a selection of secondary teachers really should not have been teaching and actually made me embarrassed that some teachers behaved liked that. Thankfully we have also had staff who have gone way above and beyond in helping our kids and made them a success.
I know secondary kids should have some independent skills to behave, do their work etc but I recognise that some kids won't have those skills because no one at home has been interested and its 100% not encouraged by parents.

While I agree that a lot of parents are being allowed to just not parent and family support is a joke, I'm wondering if you repeat the Universal Credit remark to your Cleaning, maintenance, delivery, catering, learning support staff? because a lot of them will be topped up by UC. FYI a lot of middle class people also aren't good parents and people from all classes are capable of putting their latest shag before their children.

@TheCurious0range that's why I've said family support is a joke, it props the parents up, while failing to safeguard the children.

Early intervention was cut by the Conservative government in 2011 (as was other services), we are now paying for it. Those parents failing their first child attending school, should have been identified and intervention put in, by their third baby, it's too late.

My DS’s maths teacher once called me to let me know that he’d given DS a 10 minute detention for repeatedly forgetting to bring a calculator to his lesson. DS had told him that he couldn’t stay after school that day because it was my birthday and we were going out for tea, so he was calling to check that was actually the case.

I assured him that it wasn’t my birthday and suggested that he gave DS a longer detention for telling lies.

The teacher was amazed. “Oh Mrs Jade, I wish all parents were like you… etc”. It really shocked me to hear that the majority of parents wouldn’t support their child’s punishment when they’d done wrong. Maybe I’m old fashioned but it really opened my eyes to the shit that teachers are up against. Honestly, I don’t know how you do it (and remain professional). I couldn’t. I take my hat off to you.

I do wonder how much of the problem is systemic. I think some. schools create an ‘us v them’

Our local primary is lovely- the head/senior team wait at the gate, and welcome children by name. This has the effect of stopping problems before they start- because she can listen, and take action before problems escalate.

To contrast with what I hear of some schools they stand and ‘uniform inspect’. That immediately sets up a negative start to the day- the worry of have I got it right/what can I get away with (us v them mindset)
We had a slight uniform issue where pe kit wa left at dads; was given a smile and told the small logo on the alternative option was absolutely fine, nothing to worry about.

Top down data driven test systems with an over academic curriculum that doesn’t work for a lot of children is also an issue. A wider more vocational education with a focus on skills/trades would i suspect motivate children as they would see a purpose, rather than leaning about algebra which they will likely never use. There are too many children who can’t access this level of rigour and are bored and resentful because of this.

Punitive attendance policies also create a discord between parents and schools - sniffy letters and threats of fines when children are struggling to go in don’t help anyone. In the 80s we were allowed to have up to two weeks allowed for annual leave, this was then abolished and again parents resent the school for this policy. It sets up distrust us v them- do we not go, do we lie, do we get hit with a fine? This policy doesn’t encourage open dialogue and honesty. Again I think our school have previously been able to manage- send the letter, but wish you a lovely time and not refer. Changes in law mean they are unlikely to continue to do so, and the fault isn’t with them.

Another thing our school do really well is call in days and class assembly, there’s welcome events at the start of the year, and other events throughout. They work hard to create a community, bringing people together and not setting them apart.

you're a professional with professional qualifications and codes of practice.

Of course you can't talk to parents like that. Your professional studies should have taught you how to say all that properly, like an adult not like the children you spend your day with.

bottom line: if the home life is failing the child, you need to do all you can to make sure you're not failing them too (as far as it is your job to teach them etc)

An online form can be translated automatically, enlarged or read out loud for somebody with a different first language, literacy issues (although name, address and date of birth are normally the things that the overwhelming majority are able to manage) or unable to see a paper form clearly enough to fill it in and complete all the other stages of posting it or travelling several miles to hand it in at the office.

and yet Digital Exclusion is still a thing and there should be alternatives for people who need them.

Teachers ‘are failed’ all the time @AngryHerring , which means children are too. All the time.

Recruitment, retention, sick leave. All at crisis point. Once schools run out of TA’s willing to be exploited, and can no longer scrape the money for supply, god only knows what’s going to happen.

This is such a good post. The point about the symptoms of poor parenting being very similar to the symptoms of ADHD is so very true, and also well put. Thank you!

I do get the frustration. I'm a social worker so have dealt with people being aggressive. It's not okay but it is our role as professionals to manage that and maintain the relationship. We need to keep ourselves safe to, if I spike to some parents the way they spoke to me it would probably escalate to them physically attacking me.
As for the reasons they act the way they do, I think it's often linked to their own experiences. Feeling let down by authority figures in the past so lacking respect for them and not having trust in them. Even if they've no personal experience they can be lead by what they read online or hear from others.
I'm from a working class background and moved to what would now be seen middle class. I think you're either very lucky or quite naive to not recognise that working class people are judged very harshly by some people and they feel that judgement even if it's not said outright to them. Being around educational professionals can feel really intimidating for some people and put them in fight mode when they feel judged or like they're not listened to. People like you and I have been educated and have learned good communication and emotional regulation skills to get where we are. Not everyone else has. Some people have only learned how to shout and/or intimidate others to be heard.

Teacher here. The pupils who are the most challenging are generally the ones with aggressive parents who will not admit that little Johnny has done anything wrong and refuse to let him do DTs etc.
If those parents just acknowledged the issues and worked with the school it would make Johnny happier and do better. It is SO frustrating how damaging this is for the child.
It's like 2 parents having different parenting styles. It undermines the child's ability to see right from wrong and is ultimately very bad for that child.

I think the reason they talk yo school that way is the total lack of respect for the school and teachers. School are more powerless these days, it's not easy to exclude children and you have to put up with very awful behaviour from the kids and sometimes their parents.

Teachers are becoming powerless punch bags with very little recourse. I've heard many stories of verbal and physical abuse from students with no consequences. NOONE should go to work and experience this.

You might be shocked at the way the OP has written but teachers have had ENOUGH. We are not punchbags.