To think the John Hunt family murders show how poorly coercive control is still understood?

[OrangeCrushes]

Heard a little feature on Radio 4 on the Victoria Derbyshire interview with John Hunt regarding the murder of his wife and daughters (Carol, Louise and Hannah). Louise apparently was the primary target of the attacks, which were committed by her ex partner Kyle Clifford. He also raped her.

I want to say up top that I don't in any way blame Louise's family for what happened to them and I am heartbroken that another woman (and her family) have died at the hands of an abusive man. But I am also devastated to see that even the remaining family members can't seem to understand abuse. What hope does any woman have if that's the case?

John Hunt claims that Clifford wasn't coercively controlling and seems to be offended by the suggestion. And yet, it certainly sounds like he was, as described in this Daily Fail article: "It was certain things, like Louise used to like wearing make-up but then she stopped wearing make-up - and that was down to Kyle."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13625845/amp/crossbow-killer-suspect-kyle-clifford-controlled-his-ex-girlfriend-for-six-months-by-stopping-her-from-wearing-make-up-staying-out-late-and-hanging-out-with-men-friends-reveal-before-shooting-her-dead-along-with-her-mother-and-sister.html

Some quotes below from a BBC article (with my commentary):

The signs were there, for someone who knows about abuse: "Clifford started to belittle her. When looking through the couple's text messages after Louise's death - something John says he found "very difficult to do" as the messages were personal to Louise - they noticed signs, from spring 2024, of "gentle manipulation"."

Myth that abuse always involves hitting and yelling: "Clifford never physically assaulted Louise when they were together. The family also never heard them raise their voices at each other."

It seems like the family are afraid of being blamed - but this would be an opportunity for them to raise awareness rather than deflect: "But I want to put it very bluntly now. Did we have any indication that this man was capable of stabbing my mother, of tying Louise up, of raping Louise, of shooting Louise and shooting Hannah? Absolutely not."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5wk716pzdo.amp

Poll:
YABU: coercive control is now better understood and there is hope for the future

YANBU: coercive controllers are too good at what they do and abuse myths will win out long term

He may not have noticed the signs and be torn up about it. But it's still important to highlight that there WAS controlling behaviour. It should always be highlighted.

OP we can take your post in good faith but in hindsight I think it would have been much better for you to have made the same points about coercive control being poorly recognised without directly doing so in relation to this family and certainly not by listing (after ‘I don’t blame the family but’) the things they did ‘wrong’. I’m reporting this thread not because I think you meant to be cruel but because it’s definitely not in the spirit. Maybe it’s worth starting a new one that doesn’t directly criticise individual people who are grieving so hugely.

I agree.
You quote from various media articles saying ‘the signs were there.’

i dont think any of us are in doubt that it’s preferable for people to understand as much as possible about coercive control. That’s not in doubt.

but it’s quite possible to believe that while also believing it’s in poor taste to start a thread about someone else’s tragedy and being critical of them. Particularly when you could have simply written about your own experience and your own failure to see signs of coercive behaviour.

To say that the remaining family can’t seem to see the signs and that if this is the case, what hope is there for women - which is what you state in your OP - seems dangerously like blaming the family, the wider victims of this case.

Yes

and coercive control from women too

I will also report, for the same reasons as @anytipswelcome

the issue of coercive control can be discussed without being critical of the remaining family members of a horrendous crime.

The entire thread is about how coercive control is poorly understood and how it needs to be better understood.

It is not the family's fault that they did not know about coercive control. Listing the ways that they could have possibly protected themselves if they had this knowledge is not blaming them. How could they have known when this type of behaviour is normalised in society?

No one cares about me. But this is a news story in the public eye which demonstrates the risks that coercive controllers present. Hence using it as a discussion point.

I think it is hard to judge on only a snippet of a full interview.

Regardless of whether her family identified that he was coercively controlling her, it wouldn't have changed the outcome. Nobody can control the actions of another adult. And when she did end it, that's when he murdered her and her family. I think it's absolutely fair for the remaining family to say they didn't see this coming and couldn't have predicted it. After all, how many abusive relationships are there in the UK, and how many end in a triple murder like that?

This. ^ The OP seems to be completely ignoring and denying the fact that she has in fact blamed the family/particularly the father, for not 'seeing the signs' of coercive control, when he very likely couldn't have, because 'Kyle' wasn't showing any signs! OP admitted herself that she didnt see the signs when SHE was having it happening to her, yet she expects someone's father to see it in his adult daughter's relationship. Shockingly ignorant, and insensitive posts from her.

At least admit you've messed up here @OrangeCrushes and stop doubling down. Most posters are telling you that you're in the wrong here, yet all you are doing is telling people to leave the thread, or that you are 'no longer engaging with them' because they're saying something that you don't want to hear.

This thread needs deleting, seriously!

I’m sure the father knows more than any of us commenting or even the reporters. Leave the poor man alone.

No OP has not once blamed the family, in fact shes been crystal clear thats not what shes doing. Perhaps you've struggled to understand her point?

The way I read and heard their interview was not that they were denying the abuse, but they were upset that it was portrayed as having been known about and ignored. They were unaware until after the murders, they weren’t ignoring it at the time.

A slightly different situation for me, but this is one reason why I've so far refused to consider leaving Husband - because DS would continue to see him and risk continuing to be abused.

Oh the op has said that she isn't blaming the family a few times for sure.

However she then goes on to say that the family should have done this or shouldn't have done that and it could have been avoided. That's literally victim blaming.

I don't struggle to understand her point, I was a victim, I was in a refuge, and struggled to come to term with what had happened myself.

What I didn't do was take someone else's tragedy and pick apart what they should have done and said and realised, because that's a shitty thing to do and not realistic on any level.

Op should have started a thread on her own experiences rather than disect this family's tragedy and find all the things they could have spotted in order to prevent another man's actions.

No-one is struggling to understand the OP's posts FFS. Why on earth are you trying to make out many posters are idiots. 🙄

Most posters are saying the OP is blaming the father/the family, because that's what she has done!

.

It seems odd to not totally describe him a coercive controller. But maybe he really didn't think it was his place to interfere with her choice of partner. Maybe she didn't really confide in him.

I can't really say as my Dad died before I had any relationship, but when I was being abused I told my mum. I can't imagine telling my dad.

But even then I kind of covered for him as I felt ashamed that I was still with him. So it's really hard for people to open up about it.

I guess he must feel guilty that he didn't somehow prevent her from being with him. But of course that's not really possible. She was a grown woman.

Do you not think that if a number of us felt that your wording did read as victim blaming / inappropriate, then it’s worth considering that your wording was poorly chosen even if you meant well? Rather than doubling down?

It’s ok to sometimes say something like “I didn’t meant it at all like that but I take the point that if multiple people read it that way, my wording was poorly chosen” rather than being so defensive.

The use of but undermines the start of your sentence. When people say I’m sorry but… you know they’re not actually sorry.

Your OP was in really poor taste.

Wow.

Dont try to silence posters by patronisingly saying they’re struggling to understand a point.
We understand perfectly well. We think it’s important for people to understand as much as is possible about coercive relationships. We also think it’s in very poor taste to start this thread about another family. I think it would be adding to the remaining family’s pain if they were to read the OP.

As the OP admits herself to having been in a coercive relationship and not seeing the signs, it shows exceptional cognitive dissonance to criticise family members not recognising signs when it wasn’t even happening to them, but to an adult daughter. Plus, the text messages etc were seen after the event, through a different lens. We have no knowledge, because we weren’t there, of what the family actually knew or saw. To believe exactly what’s written in the papers is the height of naivety.

I really hope MNHQ deletes this thread.

I agree

The loss he and his daughter feel is unimaginable let’s just respect they wanted to talk and we have a choice to listen

OP, I am sorry for what you have been through.

However your take is that according to the "papers" and LBC news, "sources" have stated that he did have a controlling side. Had there been better education on this the family would have seen this coming and been able to prevent it.

I am sorry but that is really distasteful. You did not live their truth and you were not there, and I am sure neither were most of the "sources" that the newspapers used - who are more interested in clicks on adverts than the truth.

The murderer was a maniac and to suggest - these are your words - "with more knowledge, they could have taken some precautions that would avoid any type of risk and prevented him from attacking them in their own home where he could do so much damage so easily" is just horrible This family did nothing wrong. This is about an evil man and not a risk assessment . Listing ways they could have helped themselves is just insulting.

I hope you have the support you need and you have my respect for your strength but leave this poor family alone . You are trying to make their story fit your narrative, but you are taking their story from tabloid quotes and not their truth.

This. Completely tasteless post

I watched Murder 24/7, about a man who stabbed his wife and his mother in law while his two small children watched and cried. The mother in law died at the scene but the wife recovered in hospital.

She told the interviewer afterwards that the guy had been violent towards her for a long time, and drank most nights. She also said 'until this incident I had no idea I was in an abusive relationship'. He had also been convicted previously of violence towards her.

It's so deeply ingrained. Even throwing her against walls etc, endless 'I'll kill you' threats didn't make her see that he was abusive.

I wonder if some kind of age appropriate 'freedom programme' could be taught in schools, because there's a huge chasm here and victims are dying.

This!

Wow what an awful thread. They were there, their views are valid,they saw the relationship first hand,it was their daughter, they will have had so much professional support and advice yet a MN thread and posters think they know better.