Trainees no longer ready for workplace

[Kukcoo]

I used to love having trainees allocated to us. They were so enthusiastic, hardworking and a breath of fresh air. It was great to see them develop.

The last few have acted like they're doing us a favour if they turn up by lunchtime because they could have called in sick for nothing. Seriously can't be bothered doing the basics and expect everything to be done for them. Little respect for anyone else and the huge support they're being given. Won't meet a deadline, because this would affect their mental health and basically impinges on their human rights.

They all still expect to qualify and will be passed by the provider unless they do something truly dangerous, but they won't have the real experience or skills to join the workplace and get on with a job.

I'm barely even a different generation, but wouldn't have dreamed of acting the way they do when I was learning and felt I had to prove myself. AIBU to expect standards to be the same?

I agree.

And what I am seeing is a lot of "you're really lucky to have XYZ" from trainees. There seems to be little comprehension - even when it's pointed out - that to the extent that any benefits exist in the workplace, these were fought for either systemically by groups, or individually by someone who proved their worth and earned it.

I don't think the attitude that everything that's good just fell out of the sky with no effort required from anyone is going to help this generation work together and fight for change.

People were saying this stuff when I was graduating in the late 1990s.

I remember having to learn office etiquette myself and getting things wrong several times. How soon people forget that they did not emerge from the womb as a perfectly formed 45 year old.

And Gen Alpha are not in the workplace yet so I'm not sure why people are discussing them.

DD2 is about to turn 16 and she's a late Gen Z.

In my part of the country housing is relatively cheap so the issue of no prospect of ever buying a house doesn't apply.

Neither is it to do with boundaries. From what I hear from former colleagues (I'm old and long retired) it's lack of subject skills and an unwillingness to improve while fully expecting a promoted post within a very few years. There were always slackers in teaching, but it was not the norm.

This isn't just since Covid either. I taught a shortage subject and new teachers even twenty years ago were showing, in general, poor skills.

Before that we had some fantastic young teachers with good subject knowledge and a lively manner, so it's not a case of everyone after me being inferior!

I partly blame all the pressure on teachers and academics to get students at school and university through with a pass, no matter how inadequate. Spoon-feeding has been very detrimental. And even at teacher training level so much of it is babyish, not professional at all.

I'm sure the best university students are as good as ever, but at the other end people are graduating who frankly wouldn't have years ago.
And teaching for many reasons doesn't appeal to many able students, so takes what it gets. I feel sorry for able people joining teaching as they are likely to be working with mediocre colleagues and leadership teams, and even more sorry for children going through the system being inadequately taught.

The public sector has excellent employee Ts and Cs and contracts which also means it's extremely difficult to get rid of duds as they're so protected.

Totally agree - it is unbelievable in the workplace now.

I'm a long serving primary school teacher, who has mentored many trainee teachers through the years. Honestly, everything from fantastic to barely scraping a pass.
That being said, it's not my experience that the students aren't trying their best. The ones I have had, the great and the dire have all been trying really bloody hard.

Are you secondary or primary? Maybe it's different in secondary?

In my husbands company, he regularly deals with apprentices and work experience (99% male) and he has had multiple cry on the job.

I'm glad people, especially men, can express their emotions.

I remember going into the loos to have a good cry in my 20s when someone spoke sharply to me at work.

In professions such as teaching, nursing, etc it sounds like a big part of the problem is the university letting them away with murder.

In other sectors (including mine!) there is clearly an issue with recruitment practices. What once worked to get good candidates isn’t any more. Candidates have so many ways to learn the process and say the right things, so methods will have to change, becoming more rigorous and putting candidates on the spot.

I do think we need to find a way to tell young people that they just might not be suitable for x career, no matter how much they want it. If, for reasons of ND they can’t speak to clients on the phone or look them in the eye, law or consulting isn’t for them unfortunately. If for reasons of anxiety, they can’t manage deadlines or meetings, there will be careers that just aren’t for them.

Maybe they think that even if they graft it still won't get them in a position to buy a house so what's the point ...

Yes, and this is a classic illustration of poverty of expectations

Nobody denies the difficulties and that some areas are unaffordable for those just starting, but for too many this actually means they can't afford what they want in the exact area they prefer, and suggestions they might compromise and maybe start off with second hand stuff is met with horror

But then this is where it brings us if folk are taught from a young age that they're entitled to this and that without putting in the effort. Add the explosion in self diagnosis of ADHD, anxiety and the rest, and a perfect storm results

Nail on the head. You can't blame universities, because if you look on the Uni threads on here, lecturers and teaching staff at Unis are saying exactly the same thing about students expecting extensive hand holding, accommodations, etc., and they're blaming the schools! Schools really need a massive kick up the arse as far too many kids are being let down. Not blaming teachers as such, but the whole system, and especially the grade inflation over decades.

And yes, far too many kids are going to Uni (thanks Blair, you idiot!) because it's just become the "norm" even for jobs that never used to need a degree. Unis are fighting each other for students, so standards are dropping, as they're having to take in "the best they can get" rather than "the best", so accepting students who really aren't up to standard just for "bums on seats" and the resultant funding!!

We really need to turn back the clock, say 30 years, to where there are lots of options OTHER THAN university, i.e. bring back Polys, return FE colleges to everyone, not just 16-18 year olds, restore adult education, turn back the clock on all the careers (especially public sector) that now require a degree (any degree of course and any grade!), and re-instate alternative entry points and on the job training via evening classes, day release, etc.

We have to accept that education over the past few decades, probably since the scrapping of the grammars in the 70s, has been a failed experiment, and start to look at other countries, such as Germany maybe, who have a completely different approach, especially to secondary years.

When we have half the kids leaving school at 16 without adequate Maths and English skills, and sometimes have kids "passing" a GCSE with a so-called "good pass" despite getting only a third of the marks, or less, you know that something has gone badly wrong.

My husband works in the IT industry and says similar. Graduates expect to walk into a high paying, high ranking job, that's exciting, and enables them to bypass the basics. It comes as a shock, when they're asked to do something simple, but probably not particularly exciting as it's deemed beneath them. Most graduate and go into the industry without any actual experience of physically doing the job. As my husband says, graduate or not, you have to start at the bottom and get experience with the fundamentals of the job.

There’s definitely something in this. DSS is a lovely young man, but had no get up and was very passive about life happening to him rather than something he could grab with both hands. DH and I agree that DSS has had everything handed to him in a plate, he’s never had a Saturday job to earn spends like we had to do, as his parents are comparatively much better off than our parents were. When he stayed with us we tried to encourage him to develop confidence and to be more independent. But all he wanted was a constant supply of snacks and access to the internet, that was the extent of his ambition.

He’s now started his adult work career and the difference in him is noticeable in terms of being proactive. He’s still a bit passive in letting his mum do stuff for him, but I guess that’s all teenage boys!

Agree with the person who thought the pre 1992 system was better.

OP, could the school refuse to take anyone on placements from the particular university?

On recruitment, my friend works for a public sector body and there is a guaranteed interview scheme for people with disabilities. Which is definitely as a policy a positive thing.

However, in their last round of graduate recruitment so many applicants had ticked the disability box that they only had the time to interview all of them. Almost all of the ones who didn’t, did not get an interview.

When the candidates arrived for interview, there was in the vast majority of cases no visible disability - which obviously does not mean that it doesn’t exist - but you can’t help but wonder how many of them are self-diagnosing as disabled? My friend said they weren’t allowed to ask about it or anything.

if this is the case, that really is damaging to people with actual and serious disabilities.

I've been teaching 25 years . This year we have 3 seperate students in year 7 who don't like cleaning themselves up after going to the toilet. Parents requested they should go home in the instance this was needed. Not neuro diverse or SEND students. Again, solvent middle class parents who because the kid 'didn't like doing it' have done it for them. Until they get to secondary school. This is mental.

Likewise, my DH works for a manufacturing company and last year they took on 11 level three engineering technician apprentices. They're taking on more this year but I don't know the numbers off the top of my head.

Level three is sort of A level standard and aimed at people straight out of school.

He says that they are all very keen to learn and do well. But the thing is, getting one of these apprenticeships is a very competitive process. The company get to pick from young people who are really motivated to be there.

I'm guessing it's not so much the same situation with trainee primary teachers?

I've always thought this!
It'll be a brave employer/careers adviser who will say this though!!

I dont allow my NHS students to do this OP. I fail them if they turn up late without permission and wont do the job properly. No way Im letting poor students loose on vulnerable patients. I make this clear from day one. But then Im in my 60s and old school.

I find this thread absolute nonsense. It's just more youth bashing, that went on in the time of Socrates let alone in the 1990s when I was young and on the receiving end of the nonsense. I resolved to never be such an old fart and think my generation are superior when I'm older and I'm sticking with it.

While I think there are factors specific to Gen Z which have made them less equipped for the traditional workplace than previous generations in some ways, I do agree that there’s a hefty dose of this going on as well. It’s easy to forget how difficult that stage of life can be when you’re older and relatively sorted. The human brain doesn’t fully develop until around age 26 — it’s developmentally normal to be a bit chaotic in your early 20s compared to your 40s (though obvs that doesn’t excuse some of the more extreme behaviour PPs have described here!)

Maybe you'll think differently when you have to manage them and write off your own leisure time because you're doing their work as well as your own!!

This is interesting - encouraging even - and I'm wondering if it's a recent thing, suggesting that some are having the sense to push back on the nonsense?

Let's face it somebody has to, otherwise the downward spiral continues, and while it'll bring shrieks of "unfair!!" it's as well to remember that while decent employees deserve a good salary, employers are ultimately the ones doing the paying

@Another2Cats

He says that they are all very keen to learn and do well. But the thing is, getting one of these apprenticeships is a very competitive process. The company get to pick from young people who are really motivated to be there.

Yes, I think with the "in demand" apprenticeship schemes, only the most highly motivated students get through the application process. They've usually got multiple hoops to jump through just to get to the final selection process, so the "stragglers" will have been weeded out (or weeded themselves out) sooner in the process. That just leaves the most highly motivated and engaged ones to actually get to the workplace.

That's how it is in accountancy, especially the big firms. It's usually a multi stage application process, with online aptitude tests, online pre-recorded interviews, etc. all before a final real life interview. Anyone who doesn't put in 110% won't get through all the stages and will never get to the workplace.

My son went through that for his graduate apprenticeship job in one of the UK largest insurance firms. Over 1,000 applicants for around a dozen positions and the whole application process took three months and had something like 6 different stages of tests, interviews, etc. He tells me his "peers" who started on the scheme at the same time are all highly motivated, resilient, self reliant etc. Some of the online aptitude tests were to test those skills, i.e. "impossible" problems or online games where you can't get it right (you only know that after you've tried several times), so the system is measuring how many times you try, how long you spend before giving up, etc!!

I think that's the difference when it comes to the "bums on seats" job placements such as teaching and maybe even nurses/doctors, where the Uni "allocates" students to placements or maybe where there isn't a stringent application process.