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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

BBC Drama

135 replies

Aquarius1234 · 27/09/2024 20:02

I used to watch most bbc dramas for years and years.
Since BBC have geared everything to I Player first and foremost, rather than for specific BBC one or BBC two.
Apparently there isn't separate controllers anymore. They don't care about where the dramas land like they used to.

Anyway. I'm really disappointed with the lack of really really good dramas in the last couple of years or so.
Budget cuts also maybe.
But wow I used to say nothing beats a great BBC gritty drama. Now I wouldn't even be able to find one 😕
Romance, crime, thriller. Was my thing.
I pay my licence also and have no intention to stop. I'm just very sad at the lack of top quality Dramas. Also I've noticed when there eventually is one starting it's generally mixed or rubbish reviews. !!
I'm shocked at the amount of rubbish/ not good enough stuff that is given the green light !!

OP posts:
TempestTost · 30/09/2024 15:38

Yeah, I feel it's gone downhill in the last 5 years.

Similarly with American TV which overall wasn't as reliably good, but for a few years there were some very good things produced.

Style over substance is part of it for sure. In the end it seems to come down to the writing.

I feel like there are a lot of lines writers need to toe. People will complain about stuff being woke or tokenistic, but I think that's a particular manifestation of a larger problem. It's like stories need to all include certain tropes, or can't really challenge certain tropes.

I find for example that even dramas are often deeply anachronistic, particularly around social attitudes and norms. Even where they are lighter shows that aren't meant to be challenging it's difficult to take them seriously because it's obviously a total fantasy. Call the Midwife now, while it used to be good on these things, is almost unwatchable it's so full of anachronisms.

I watched an older show the other day, The Cazaletts. Not a perfect show but what struck me was that so many of the characters had both very good and very unlikable qualities, or were in some ways quite awful people while also having done good things, and there really wasn't much direct commentary about this that you could pick up from the writing - the viewer was really left to make judgement. The writing was pretty solid in terms of characterizations, even if I might have quibbled with the plotting.

A lot of it seems to be about creating a cool scenario, a cool visual image, or a cool character. (Killing Eve suffers from this.)

MasterBeth · 30/09/2024 15:43

paranoidnamechanger · 29/09/2024 11:56

The glory days of BBC drama are long gone (Clocking Off, Cranford, A Sense of Guilt, Cutting It, A Fatal Inversion). Even the most recent series of Happy Valley was a bit crap.

The U.S is where the really good stuff comes from, generally. Probably because the networks and platforms have got the money to invest in superb writers and actors - just over the past few years the high quality stuff I've seen includes The White Lotus, Julia, Mare of Easttown, True Detective, The Last of Us. I'm really looking forward to Disclaimer, starring Cate Blanchett and directed by Alfonso Cuarón - that's only available on Apple TV+.

The BBC also has a habit of casting the same people again and again (such as Keeley Hawes and Adeel Akhtar) which I find boring. I enjoyed Wolf Hall, but note there's some woke casting in the next adaptation of her series, so I probably won't bother with that.

Very glad you drew attention to "woke casting" at the end there because it means I don't need to bother with the rest of your post.

TempestTost · 30/09/2024 15:57

MasterBeth · 30/09/2024 15:43

Very glad you drew attention to "woke casting" at the end there because it means I don't need to bother with the rest of your post.

I's kind of obvious though, isn't it, when a show like Wolf Hall is doing that kind of thing?

It's clearly not emerging naturally from the story, it's usually to fulfill quotas and requirements being set by the producers or the BBC.

I love stories set in all kinds of places with all kinds of people - I was really disappointed that they decided not to make a second season of Three Little Birds recently - it wasn't perfect but it's very similar to how my partner's mother left Jamaica and her experiences, although she came a little later. But a very interesting setting.

But Wolf Hall? It's tokenistic writing, obviously so, and I can never figure out how people don't find that embarrassing.

MasterBeth · 30/09/2024 16:12

TempestTost · 30/09/2024 15:57

I's kind of obvious though, isn't it, when a show like Wolf Hall is doing that kind of thing?

It's clearly not emerging naturally from the story, it's usually to fulfill quotas and requirements being set by the producers or the BBC.

I love stories set in all kinds of places with all kinds of people - I was really disappointed that they decided not to make a second season of Three Little Birds recently - it wasn't perfect but it's very similar to how my partner's mother left Jamaica and her experiences, although she came a little later. But a very interesting setting.

But Wolf Hall? It's tokenistic writing, obviously so, and I can never figure out how people don't find that embarrassing.

It's embarrassing to me that a Londoner with Egyptian parents can't pretend to be an Elizabethan poet on TV without causing an attack of the vapours.

TempestTost · 30/09/2024 16:41

MasterBeth · 30/09/2024 16:12

It's embarrassing to me that a Londoner with Egyptian parents can't pretend to be an Elizabethan poet on TV without causing an attack of the vapours.

Does he look like he could have been an Elizabethan poet? Spanish, possibly? If so there's no issue, the nationality of his parents, or even their ethnicity, isn't relevant.

If it's not meant to be realistic, again, probably no issue. Which is one reason why it often works better in theater.

But in a historical drama that's meant to be highly realistic, it makes no sense, you might as well cast Ian McKlellan as Ramses the Great.

The larger issue is disrespect for the stories being told, which affects the writing badly in a lot of ways.

TotHappy · 30/09/2024 16:46

I thought 'Better' was really excellent drama on the BBC last year (not sure if they made it though). Possibly still on iplayer? And 'The Gold' although that was a bit more clichéd.

Jux · 30/09/2024 17:04

I subscribe to Apple tv solely so we can watch Slow Horses. It's brilliant and worth every penny. It's the sort of thing the BBC used to produce, but you're right, they don't now. Even their news reporting is falling down in quality. Saturday night tv, all shit, absolute shit.

TempestTost · 30/09/2024 17:20

Jux · 30/09/2024 17:04

I subscribe to Apple tv solely so we can watch Slow Horses. It's brilliant and worth every penny. It's the sort of thing the BBC used to produce, but you're right, they don't now. Even their news reporting is falling down in quality. Saturday night tv, all shit, absolute shit.

I have watched a few episodes of this at my mum's, but don't have access to Apple TV at home.

This is an issue overall I find, differernt services have one or two things I might want, but I can't afford them all. And I'm not going out to buy an Apple product just to watch Slow Horses or really any TV.

JaninaDuszejko · 30/09/2024 17:28

I'd rather Wolf Hall was left as it was but there was also a TV drama series about the black people that actually were in the Tudor court, like John Blanke. There were hundreds of black people in Tudor London (the city had a total population of between 50K to 200K at this point), why not do a period drama about them? Colour blind casting can be done well but often is just a diversity box ticking exercise. You can make Anne Boleyn black in a TV series but that doesn't change everyone knowing she was actually white. You do a drama about John Blanke or one of the other black Tudors we know about and you change lots of people's understanding of the history of black people in Europe. There are lots of good black actors, they should be given meaty period drama roles.

ETA: thismay just be me getting old and fed up of yet another drama about Henry VIII and his wives.

Whenwillitgetwarm · 30/09/2024 18:35

Well I’ve just seen Netflix advertising a series about Queen Victoria. It’s just ridiculous at this point.

wavingfuriously · 30/09/2024 18:43

Tallisker · 29/09/2024 12:33

I'd love to watch A Fatal Inversion as I loved the book. I bought it on DVD but the quality was so poor it got stuck in the player (still there, I think). The little bit I saw was terrible quality.

So if anyone knows where I can watch it, I'd be grateful.

Remember watching it, was so good 👍 stuck in my mind

MasterBeth · 30/09/2024 21:30

TempestTost · 30/09/2024 16:41

Does he look like he could have been an Elizabethan poet? Spanish, possibly? If so there's no issue, the nationality of his parents, or even their ethnicity, isn't relevant.

If it's not meant to be realistic, again, probably no issue. Which is one reason why it often works better in theater.

But in a historical drama that's meant to be highly realistic, it makes no sense, you might as well cast Ian McKlellan as Ramses the Great.

The larger issue is disrespect for the stories being told, which affects the writing badly in a lot of ways.

If Wolf Hall is meant to be highly realistic, why aren't the cast talking in Elizabethan English? Why do the 16th century buildings look hundreds of years old? Why is the 6ft tall Damian Lewis playing the 6'2" Henry VIII? Why are all the people gathering in combinations that look pleasing to the eye if you were to hold a 16:9 rectangle up to the screen? Why are many years of events played out over 6 x 1 hour episodes rather than in real time?

Because the whole grammar and practice of television is artificial. Nothing is real. Nothing is authentic. They're all pretending. And you happily accept it all unthinkingly because it's completely irrelevant to your understanding of the story.

And yet the thing that concerns you (I presume when you draw attention to "woke casting") is the ethnicity of one of the actors. This is disrespectful. Why is that your focus?

MasterBeth · 30/09/2024 21:33

TempestTost · 30/09/2024 17:20

I have watched a few episodes of this at my mum's, but don't have access to Apple TV at home.

This is an issue overall I find, differernt services have one or two things I might want, but I can't afford them all. And I'm not going out to buy an Apple product just to watch Slow Horses or really any TV.

You do realise you don't have to buy an Apply product to watch Apple TV+? It's a streaming service you can watch on any tablet or laptop as well as through an app on any (well, most) smart TV.

TempestTost · 01/10/2024 01:57

MasterBeth · 30/09/2024 21:33

You do realise you don't have to buy an Apply product to watch Apple TV+? It's a streaming service you can watch on any tablet or laptop as well as through an app on any (well, most) smart TV.

Well that is nice to know, because having asked the technology person at my house if I could do that, I was told no. It did not seem at all unbelievable that the Apple company would require you use one of their devices.

Now I will be able to argue we should lose the sports channel and get Apple TV.

TempestTost · 01/10/2024 02:25

MasterBeth · 30/09/2024 21:30

If Wolf Hall is meant to be highly realistic, why aren't the cast talking in Elizabethan English? Why do the 16th century buildings look hundreds of years old? Why is the 6ft tall Damian Lewis playing the 6'2" Henry VIII? Why are all the people gathering in combinations that look pleasing to the eye if you were to hold a 16:9 rectangle up to the screen? Why are many years of events played out over 6 x 1 hour episodes rather than in real time?

Because the whole grammar and practice of television is artificial. Nothing is real. Nothing is authentic. They're all pretending. And you happily accept it all unthinkingly because it's completely irrelevant to your understanding of the story.

And yet the thing that concerns you (I presume when you draw attention to "woke casting") is the ethnicity of one of the actors. This is disrespectful. Why is that your focus?

Yes, even realistic productions have all kinds of artificiality, I am afraid you are not making some kind of revelation here.

There are two major kind of artificialities in film and television. Ones where the audiences notice them as odd, and realize while watching that there is artifice; and then the ones that are the opposite, where they prevent the audience from noticing the artifice.

When you have a clearly unrealistic set, is an example of the former. Or real blind casting which could never be realistic is another. Surrealist elements in the filming, are another kind of example. There are lots of examples of film and TV like this.

It's not simple though - for example, when we watch a play written in the Elizabethan period, the language actually makes us more aware of the fact that it is a play, even though it's strictly more accurate for the period than using modern language.

Productions that are meant to be realist and immerse the viewer have to do all kinds of things, like use modern, but "old sounding" language, or make sure people's teeth aren't so bad they would be distracting, and all kinds of other deceptions that have the paradoxical effect of immersing the viewer.

Both can work and are totally valid approaches but you have to know which you are trying to create or you will do neither well.

The thing with casting that is clearly unrealistic to the average viewer, when you are trying to create a kind of realist immersion, is first of all that it's not effective, they notice because they are not idiots; secondly that you are treating the audience as if they are fools, or an audience for them to preach to, both of which involve disrespect of the audience; thirdly that it does this for political reasons that have nothing to do with the artistic requirements of the project; and fourthly because it treats actors, even very fine ones, as racial tokens.

The fifth reason is that even as a political statement, it's contradictory and hypocritical, because everyone understands why, in a realistic piece, you would use actors that looked as if they fit the appropriate ethnicity if they were talking a story set in India or Thailand or any other specific setting outside of Europe. (Heck, many people don't even like it when you cast non-Asian actors in anime based series that are clearly not at all realistic!) It's extremely disingenuous on the one hand to understand why people dislike unrealistic casting in those settings but pretend not to understand why people dislike it in Wolf Hall.

A lot of production companies now have, unfortunately, put pressure on to tick certain boxes, whether it makes sense for the production or not. Some will not ok productions that do not include certain elements. It's nothing to do with artistic merit, or some kind of artistic vision the production is trying to achieve. It doesn't have anything to do with making sense in the story. People wanting to watch a very well crafted, realist show like Wolf Hall, based on a highly detailed, realistic historical fiction novel, aren't jerks because they don't like that.

Seacatt · 01/10/2024 02:35

Tallisker · 29/09/2024 12:33

I'd love to watch A Fatal Inversion as I loved the book. I bought it on DVD but the quality was so poor it got stuck in the player (still there, I think). The little bit I saw was terrible quality.

So if anyone knows where I can watch it, I'd be grateful.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x81k0fy

It is here.

Dailymotion

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x81k0fy

Joystir59 · 01/10/2024 02:46

Nightsleeper on iPlayer is good

MmedeGouge · 01/10/2024 03:42

LightSpeeds · 27/09/2024 22:15

It's the same with Radio 4. It used to have brilliant drama and comedy. It's mostly what educated me.

Now it's just a non-stop miseryfest of awful news, and repeats repeats repeats (of not very good programmes).

Absolutely, I agree.
It’s so disappointing.

rainfallpurevividcat · 01/10/2024 06:33

It's because of the squeeze on funding. The Tories tried to destroy it. I think it does pretty well and I personally watch/listen to BBC content far more than anything else, in spite of plenty of other options being available.

Bettyfromlondon · 01/10/2024 08:36

I too have recently enjoyed Sherwood but it took me a couple of tries to get into it. My biggest bugbear is that like many other recent drama series it was mainly filmed in the dark or gloom for no good reason. I often find myself shouting "Ffs! Turn the bloody lights on!!" at the screen. Good job I live on my own!
I already use the subtitles to combat the hyper-naturalistic mumbling style of speech now in favour despite my hearing having been assessed as in the normal range.
Anyway, I am soon to get an Apple subscription for as long as it takes to work through a list beginning with Slow Horses and moving on to Pachinko, La Maison, Shardlake and a police drama with David Tennant and Cush Jumbo.
For info : you can start and stop most streaming services quite easily as long as you keep an eye on your diary.

Planning to give Sambre a go later and the second series of The Twelve on
ITV x.
( Thank you! This thread has prompted me to check if there is a new series of Outlander out there somewhere. It has jumped from platform to platform so I have no idea if they are in the throes of the American War of Independence now.)

zaxxon · 01/10/2024 09:33

@TempestTost I disagree. If the actors in, say, an Elizabethan drama are good, I don't notice their ethnicity, any more than I notice their lack of wooden teeth or 21st-century height.

Tallisker · 01/10/2024 10:24

@Seacatt thank you!

paranoidnamechanger · 01/10/2024 23:07

I’ve just caught up with recent episodes of Slow Horses, a show so impeccably cast and crafted I can’t imagine it ever being on the BBC. Also, I guess Gary Oldman doesn’t come cheap. The Morning Show is also very well done and I read it costs $15,000,000 per episode to make.

MasterBeth · 01/10/2024 23:36

The thing with casting that is clearly unrealistic to the average viewer, when you are trying to create a kind of realist immersion, is first of all that it's not effective, they notice because they are not idiots; secondly that you are treating the audience as if they are fools, or an audience for them to preach to, both of which involve disrespect of the audience; thirdly that it does this for political reasons that have nothing to do with the artistic requirements of the project; and fourthly because it treats actors, even very fine ones, as racial tokens.

The thing that's interesting with casting that you deem "clearly unrealistic" is that it bothers you so specifically and so much. That ethnicity is such an marker of difference to you that you can't get over it. It transcends all other cues. You are quite prepared to see past the actual famous actorly faces of Mark Gatiss or Damian Lewis in a part, who you know are clearly not the characters they are playing because you are not an idiot, because they share the ethnicity of the historical figures they play, but your "realist immersion" is broken by a lesser known black or brown face. You can't unsee the colour.

Secondly, productions are not treating the audience as fools, but as intelligent enough to be able to see past ethnicity towards talent and performance.

Thirdly, the artistic requirements of the project are surely to hire the best ensemble of actors not the best ensemble of white actors, which would be a completely political decision

Be ause, fourthly, it is you who are literally advocating for casting actors because of their racial background. Because they are white.

harriettenightingale · 02/10/2024 09:37

So I assume it would be ok for Danny Dyer to play Martin Luther King?