To ask if you got your child back into school after EBSA?

[drspouse]

I know I'm going to touch a total nerve here, but those who know me will know I've got skin in this game. DS is ironically in a very unsuitable SEMH specialist school but we have no problems at all getting him there in the morning. He has, however, been in a primary PRU where he struggled to go in and the deputy head said "he's not anxious" when he was hiding inside my cardigan.

Bridget Phillipson says parents must not "let" their children stay at home.

www.facebook.com/bridgetphillipson/posts/pfbid04qzL7fcPQb1bifL62gWuZu3ykHApzSJUTZRb3fnQh68JmXNbF97PdmJDejZxCpHHl

There's a recent report (which I slightly question as I'm not sure who they asked - if they used a snowball method then once they got a few parents of neurodiverse children that's going to skew their sample) saying that over 90% of children persistently missing school have ASD or ADHD. If anyone has the link feel free to put it below.

I'd like to know what worked for you, or what didn't work.

I am not personally of the opinion that low demand, or socially isolating setups are good for children. I'm also aware that some alternative provision/EOTAS setups can involve a lot of interaction with other children/a variety of adults, so it's not necessarily more isolating than school. But I'm firmly in the camp of "if you avoid it you will be more anxious" and that's how we worked with DS when he was anxious - gentle introduction, sitting at the doors of the school playing a game with his excellent TA, and ignoring the deputy head when she said he wasn't anxious (luckily the TA ignored him too).

It isn’t about where I live. I support/have supported parents across the country including in your LA.

No, I’m not taking PRUs. Settings that aren’t a school can’t have DC all day, every day. That would make them an unregistered school and that would be illegal. This is part of why I say you are drawing conclusions about EOTAS without the correct facts.

The majority of EOTAS packages are with multiple providers. Many have more than one provider a day. Some have several providers a day. But that doesn’t mean EOTAS can’t happen, and it doesn’t have to be unsuccessful.

Lots of people don’t use agencies. But £75/hr from a tutor company is within the normal range depending on what people need. The costs are far higher than social care PAs. The LA must provide enough funding so the provision can actually be provided. Another reason why a watertight EHCP is essential - but that is the same even in a school.

Those who have packages which rely on parents could appeal when they next have the right of appeal. Legally, parents cannot be compelled to deliver, facilitate or organise provision.

Yes - but on his own schedule rather than the ones the school wanted us. His EBSA started in year 2 after stomach problems - so the physical health thing came first but mental health issues soon followed. Year 2 was basically a write off with school trying to force us to take him in ('he will be fine once he gets there') and now-ex-DH carrying him into school and him getting pinned down on the floor by reception staff. Hideous and against all my instincts.

By the end of year 2 I took him out a week early and took control thinking I would take him out fully if I had to. Anything except seeing him that stressed. He started year 3 but it was touch and go for his attendance and then half way through lockdown happened.

We moved towns for year 4 and that went well but by the end of year 5 he was having debilitating stomach and headaches and began taking a lot of time off. By the beginning of year six this was full blown anxiety and he just couldn't attend. He didnt attend at all from September of year six to around January and then one day out of the blue said he wanted to in for PE!! From then on I managed to increase this gradually from one session a day to one hour to two hours and eventually, by the beginning of the summer term he was back in full time. The school were... variable I would say. There was the usual pressure from the attendance officer but I ignored that. When you've had a child with such severe mental health issues (at one point DS was saying he didnt want to be alive anymore) you eventually dont give a shit what people like that say and just want to do what is best for your child. Of course we don't always KNOW what is best for our children but thankfully letting DS go back in on his own terms helped.

That was over a year ago now and he's successfully managed to attend 78% of year 7 in his new school and is now going into year 8. I am very nervous about the new term as he is still often physically not well but thankfully it has been a massive improvement. I am always worried however, that the EBSA will return.

@drspouse I agree with most of what you are saying but I dont think neurotypical people should assume they know what stresses are tolerable for autistic people and which are not. Im not saying you personally think that but its an attitude I come across a lot eg “he needs to learn theres nothing scary about assembly”. Not for you maybe, but Actually for him assembly is very bad and scary.

@EndlessLight no parent in my area has any non-home provision that involves their child being supervised. Some have gym membership, riding, swimming lessons included in EOTAS. Unless they are old enough to go on their own (e.g. you can go to the gym from 14 without a parent), there is nothing where a child can go and stay without a parent.
I'm sure you HAVE supported parents in other areas of my LEA. I'm not sure why you're unwilling to believe there are some areas where there is no provision.
And again, no staff to be PAs also means no staff to be supervisors for in home tuition. Again, I'm not sure why you don't believe there are some areas with no available staff.

@FumingTRex like I said, I think mainstream school should look very different for all children so more can be included. But like I also said, lots of parents on here have found different things work for different children suffering from the same issue on the face of it.

no parent in my area has any non-home provision that involves their child being supervised.

Just because there’s no one in your area that has it doesn’t mean it isn’t possible. "No-one else has that" is one of the lines LAs throw about with the aim of putting parents off. Many have to appeal and seek independent assessments, then enforce the provision.

Parents cannot be forced to take DC to the gym, riding, swimming lessons. Those parents should appeal, then enforce the provision.

I'm not sure why you're unwilling to believe there are some areas where there is no provision.

Can you quote where I have said this? Because if you read my first post, I said there were APs in your LA. Not in your specific area. I also acknowledged it depends on DC and what you are looking for. Unfortunately, many DC travel a great distance to APs. Just like they do to schools. I didn’t mention your ‘area’ in my second post either.

And again, no staff to be PAs also means no staff to be supervisors for in home tuition. Again, I'm not sure why you don't believe there are some areas with no available staff.

No social care PAs really doesn’t mean no staff to provide EOTAS provision. They are not the same role and while some people could provide either, many couldn’t. The rate of pay is also significantly different. LAs have to ensure the provision is actually provided. It is non-delegable and excuses such as they can’t find a tutor/teacher/TA/HLTA/LSA/mentor… don't relieve them of their duty and won’t wash in court. The fact you think this highlights your misunderstanding of EOTAS and the LA’s legal duties that can be enforced.

My DD developed EBSA when she started secondary school. She already had a diagnoses of ASD and dyspraxia and an EHCP. The school were crap and thought it was appropriate to give an autistic 11 year old with EBSA detention for being forgetful or disorganised. They were not kind or understanding at all, and sometimes they were outright cruel. Obviously that didn't help how she felt about school.

She didn't go to school at all for 6 months, and then got a place in an independent specialist school. She coped there a million times better, and her attendance was good until she left at the end of year 11. She now goes to a mainstream college with no problems.

I agree with the OP in that I don't think home education / socially isolation etc is ideal (although I understand how some families end up there). We were certain we didn't want this for our DD. But not all school environments are suitable, and some can be damaging or even traumatic.

Ideally I think children with EBSA should be offered alternative placements in a school more appropriate for their needs, like my DD was. But obviously there isn't the provision out there at the moment for this to happen.

The schools need to focus on relationships and a sense of belonging and flexibility and get their educational psychologist to help

Not sure if this is helpful, but my autistic daughter developed EBSA after the Covid lockdown. She would completely shut down at school, not move or interact, so we were called a number of times to come and get her. She was in year 11 at her Grammar school. I had many conversations with school saying I wanted her in and learning, but that they also needed to make accommodations. They listened to me and her and set up a desk in a separate part of the library area so she could sit and work, attending class if she felt able. She had a number of members of staff who 'got' her (they were neurodivergent themselves) and she opened up to them too. It helped that her behaviour otherwise was impeccable so she did not need supervision on that aspect so there was no extra funding needed from the school's POV. We paid for a private therapist. She was also prescribed medication from GP to help with the anxiety.

She still had days where she was overwhelmed and couldn't go in, but she did make it. through, stayed for 6th form and is now doing well at Uni.

Child 1 - diagnosed autistic and OCD. Stopped being able to attend in year 4 and missed much of years 4 and 5. What got him back to year 6 was an EHCP, dedicated 1:1 who really 'got' him, uniform accommodations, gradual return entirely at his own pace. Never quite made it full time but enjoyed finishing primary with his friends (it was his choice to stay at his mainstream for year 6). Now at independent specialist secondary and goes in happily/has excellent attendance

Child 2 - diagnosed anxiety, probably also autistic. Stopped being able to attend mainstream secondary in May of year 7 and missed the rest of the year. Went back in year 8 on a very reduced timetable in the SEN hub. Over the year slowly increased time in school although still not in the classroom. Will go into year 9 in Sept on the same basis but hoping to start going to parts of some lessons - at his own pace and entirely dictated by him. He's desperate to stay at this school and get back to class so we're trying to enable him to achieve that. EHCP refusal to issue so am appealing but tribunal not until Sept 25. Fortunately school are massively supportive even without EHCP or formal diagnosis in place

So I think what worked for both mine has been giving them control of how much and how long they are in school and making sure the environment is manageable has been key.

No, never got them back in. Actually getting them in to the building became borderline abusive to be honest.

Even if they went in, school failed to provide suitable education or social experiences so it wasn't going to work.

We ended up home educating and it has been a much better experience both educationally and socially.

The education system just isn't suitable for a large number of children OR teachers now, but rather than tackle the causes, governments just stick plasters over the symptoms - threatening parents with fines, coming up with various recruitment campaigns for teachers.

A significant proportion of the people in schools (children and adults) are stressed, overwhelmed and miserable.
We are understanding of teachers choosing to leave toxic environments but children who resist are a problem.

A very supportive school. Regular nice phonecalls concerned about both our well-being's. No threats and not telling me to just take him in. Teachers coming round to chat to him. NSPCC social workers doing a programme with him. Then ultimately those people driving him to school. Regular check ins once he was in school.

Y11 this time and he's back in every day, commuting himself and even socialising on the way home some days. We've had the odd blip - one needing the police to find him - but his gcse prospects are good.

As far as I can tell no one in my area has got an EOTAS package that would cover all that without having enormous financial, mental and other resources to throw at the appeals process. So it's all very well saying 'you need to appeal' but most people don't have 5k to drop on assessments plus legal fees. It ends up being a PRU or a parent giving up work to coordinate limited tutoring hours.

I definitely think young people can become better at self management too- DD has as she's got older and will take herself out to decompress or chill elsewhere which actually means she's more willing to try things because she knows she can control some of the situation. It doesn't mean she's 'cured' or anyone is trying to 'cure' her, but I do want her to have a range of experiences so she can find things she loves. Obviously some schools are awful at supporting this which is a different issue and often needs to be locked in with an EHCP.

I liked the idea a PP said where their school does 'demand maps'- that's how I have encouraged some ND line-managees to think about their days/weeks, so good to see I was on some sort of right line there. We have conversations along the lines of- all jobs have higher demand times or things we find hard/uncomfortable, how can we manage our time so those don't pile up too much? None of that works in burnout of course but it's maybe a workable strategy for going back in.

@EndlessLight, you're definitely right about the need for an absolutely watertight EHCP. I've just been notified that crucial funding for key provision has been declined due to an omission in the EHCP which I overlooked at AR due to overwhelm and exhaustion following an intense annual review process and a period of deepening EBSA. This will mean we're unable to make the bridge to gradually build regular attendance at DC1's mainstream secondary again, a place we are desperate to keep due to the social opportunities it affords DC1 when able to attend.

The assumption is that we will not skip a beat but to launch straight into emergency review and appeal, but as a PP says, it's not a given to have the resources to be able to do so, and after years of unflinchingly paddling upstream, fighting and advocating at every turn, I'm surprised to find I may have to tap out ‐I honestly don't think I've got enough fight left in me to go up against our LA. Which is what they're cynically banking on, of course.

@drspouse what I'm saying, in a roundabout way, is that I believe that they key to remedying DC1's EBSA lay in a specific intervention (preparation for adulthood) which the LA could have chosen to fund alongside the school's Ordinarily Available Provision, but they've chosen to obstruct. I'm confident this was the game-changer, the make-or-break.

Parents don’t need legal representation to appeal. Most parents appealing to SENDIST don’t. Some parents choose to go down that route, but it isn’t essential. It is more than possible to be successful without.

Independent assessments are often needed for EOTAS appeals going after comprehensive package. Where parents can’t afford these but aren’t eligible for legal aid, there are charities who can help such as Parents in Need.

Some parents choose not to pursue an appeal and that is their right, obviously, but that decision should be an informed decision based on knowing the law and correct information, not myths the LA likes to perpetuate.

Thing is @EndlessLight, most of the parents I know have spent months and months just on the complaints process (which is where you are if you have an EOTAS package specified but it isn't being delivered). After a few delays and "we'll take this to the next stage" you have yet another year of a child's education gone by. Children don't stand still while you wait a year for tribunal to actually get EOTAS, or get a full package written into the EHCP, and by the time your child has failed in year 7, tried to get an EHCP in year 8, and been fobbed off with refusal to assess, refusal to issue, naming the mainstream school and refusing to specify EOTAS, your child is in Year 11 and there is no point in trying to get a full package where they are supervised and tutored because your child is either studying online for their GCSEs or they are permanently under the duvet and can never come out.

So in an ideal world, you'd get a tutor and a supervisor full time apart from the days when your child was in a lovely forest school with a 1:1 but in the real world, they are in their bedroom for 5 years because you are spending all that time appealing and complaining.

complaints process (which is where you are if you have an EOTAS package specified but it isn't being delivered).

If provision is detailed, specified and quantified in F, JR is the route to remedy the situation. The complaints process is too long, so it isn’t a suitable remedy.

As I said, not pursuing an appeal is the parents’ choice. I disagree it isn’t worth pursuing in Y11 though. Some DC don’t get their EHCP until post 16 and then an EOTAS package. Out of the people I have helped, it hasn’t taken me 5 years to achieve an EOTAS package even if the child or young person didn't have an EHCP to start with and an appeal at every stage is required and pre-action letters along the way. And in the meantime, if attending school isn’t suitable, parents can enforce section 19 provision if they decide that is what they want to do.

I know you are trying to be helpful @EndlessLight and I have no doubt you are factually correct and it might spur people to challenge their LA which I am sure is your intent.

But not everyone knows you to help guide them! many parents lack the capacity to do this for themselves. It comes across a bit parent blamey. Like if your childs provisions arent being delivered its your fault for not following processess.

It is not at all unusual for children with adhd or autism to have parents with undiagnosed adhd and autusm or to be dyslexic or to be working peculiar hours around child needs and have no down time to follow judicial review.

Of course there are charities out there to help but people don't always know about them or the charity is overwhelmed with applicants for support.

I do believe you are trying to help out but it isn't easy for people.

@Frowningprovidence it is not parent blamey at all! And nowhere have I said it was easy! I have said more than once that not appealing is a choice parents can make. The same applies for JR.

Sadly, DC whose parents know the system get better support. It shouldn’t be like that and disappointingly it isn’t going to change in the foreseeable future. Parents need correct information in order to make decisions. Hence my posts. Otherwise myths perpetuated by e.g. LAs, some schools, some EPs, SENDIASS in many areas leave parents misinformed. Parents can’t make informed decisions without all the information such as knowing it isn’t lawful for LAs to expect parents to deliver packages or knowing JR is an option or knowing for JR legal aid is in the child’s name so isn’t based on the parents’ financial situation. I too have ASD and I am awaiting an ADHD assessment.

@EndlessLight JR is only a "remedy of last resort" and courts won't take it on if you haven't exhausted all other means of solving the problem e.g. LEA complaints process.
We took DS former school to court over disability discrimination (failure to deliver components of his EHCP and exclusion). They were found guilty but from exclusion to tribunal was over a year. Again, this is not something that is going to accelerate provision within EHCP/delivery of EOTAS package in any meaningful way for a child who is in secondary.
You are totally parent blaming, sorry but it's true. You've asked me why I don't know about EOTAS packages, told me I'm wrong about many things in my immediate area where other parents know what's available and suitable.

If you have handy methods for getting JR to work within a reasonable time please let us know. We were considering this when we weren't getting OT for DS and we'd been through numerous complaints procedures. The LEA just keeps saying "oh we're talking about it" and delaying and delaying, and eventually about 6 months later the school funded private OT. Children don't have even 6 months to wait when they are in crisis. And we didn't even get to JR.

I know this says that you should probably not go through the complaints process but if the LEA will only communicate through this process you are a bit stuck. The court backlog is not "weeks" as they are suggesting but months or even years. Many LEAs, including ours, never concede before tribunal/court - often at the very last minute. We know this is done because they want to save months or years of expensive provision, but this does NOT help the child.

sossen.org.uk/whats-judicial-review/

JR is only a "remedy of last resort" and courts won't take it on if you haven't exhausted all other means of solving the problem e.g. LEA complaints process.

This isn’t the case where F is not being provided or where s19 provision is not being provided. See the link you posted (my bold).

“JR is a remedy of last resort. It should be used only after all other efforts to work with the Local Authority to resolve the issue have failed. This includes, for example, ensuring you have used the Local Authority’s formal complaints process where this could provide a realistic remedy – however, it is not a realistic remedy if it would be too slow, for instance, when a child is out of school unlawfully, or is not receiving full time education, or if the child’s special educational needs are not being met.”

LAs can’t ignore the JR process. Recent case law shows even when they think they can, they can’t. The process and timescales, including the ability to request interim provision is ordered whilst the case is ongoing, is explained on the SOSSEN link and links on that page.

DD claims are not the same as JR. The timescales and process are different are different.

You are totally parent blaming

No I am not.

You've asked me why I don't know about EOTAS packages

I have not asked you that. Quote where I have?

told me I'm wrong about many things in my immediate area where other parents know what's available and suitable.

I asked you to quote where I had mentioned your immediate area. You haven’t quoted where I supposedly said this. This is because I haven’t said it. I posted about your LA not your immediate area.

If at @EndlessLight is the poster I think she is, she works tirelessly to share her expertise with other parents on MN SEND pages and many of our children now have well defined EHCPs thanks to her advice.

I have supported one child back into mainstream following EBSA with the support of clinical psychology who told a not terribly helpful or skilled school what to do (eg. lower demands and opportunities to fail, work within child's tolerances, give child meaningful choices, emphasise building relationships of trust (staff and students)). DC now attends full time, albeit with lateness on days with a lot of anxiety. Still battling to enforce all of EHCP given pervasiveness of school belief they are mainstream and therefore only need to do QFT <sighs>.

No, you don't need legal support to appeal. But the process is opaque, jargony, with loads of deadlines. Very difficult to do and engage with, especially if you're not a native English speaker, have an LD yourself or just not the actual time to basically have another job on top of your existing job. We're in the appeals stage at the moment and I am doing it myself.

Most LAs do deliberately crappy assessments as well. Every fight delays things more.

The system is the problem, not parents' ability to follow an opaque process doused in legalese.

And nowhere have I said otherwise.

Informing parents of the law and what they can do isn’t the same as saying the broken system is their fault.

I managed it by moving school to a specialist independent for academically able autistic children. There aren't many of these especially at primary school which is what was needed.

It took a long time as unfortunately EHCP appeals for B, F and I are taking a year. Plus all the prep before that. Which is especially not easy when there's a child out of school.

My LA conceded the appeal after providing absolutely no evidence and missing all deadlines at the last possible moment.

DS is very happy now but it is such a long winded and painful process.