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To think the Lucy Letby case needs a judicial review?

1000 replies

Edenspirits73 · 09/07/2024 16:19

2 more detailed articles in main stream papers today questioning the Lucy Letby verdict - mirroring the well known New York Times article that wasn’t allowed here during her trial- surely with this much questioning, there should at least be a judicial review?

aibu?

If she is guilty after review then fair enough, but yet again convictions are being viewed as unsafe.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/09/lucy-letby-serial-killer-or-miscarriage-justice-victim/

Lucy Letby: killer or coincidence? Why some experts question the evidence

Exclusive: Doubts raised over safety of convictions of nurse found guilty of murdering babies

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Mirabai · 17/07/2024 09:13

@MistressoftheDarkSide But this is the thing: the tests did not confirm the presence of exogenous insulin. If the prosecution presented this as fact then the defence should have shown the claim for what it was: a lie. The test was not for exogenous insulin, it was not even a test for endogenous insulin either - it was a test for antibodies to insulin. Exogenous insulin was simply inferred from the insulin- c peptide ratio. Which is highly questionable to say the least.

This is all the defence’s responsibility not LL’s. They needed their own experts to present the truth about the nature of the test, its reliability, the fact that hyperinsulemia is not uncommon in preterm neonates etc.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 17/07/2024 09:56

Yes, I agree. That's what I was trying to get at but clumsily.

That the findings were interpreted as proof of insulin being present and framed as such by the prosecution is the issue despite it being way too far down the line to test that evidence is shocking, but the prosecution used it as another "smoking gun".

When you look at the "smoking guns" none of them stand up to scrutiny. So we go to the "big picture" scenario, because what are the odds that Lucy Letby could be so "unlucky" as some have scornful asked.

I was thinking about this myself, because I have experienced a series of unfortunate events in my life and am now at a point where I rarely speak of them because listening to my story, I see people calculating those odds and wondering what it us about me that attracts such misfortune, and why aren't I rocking in the corner of a padded cell? Not going to bang on about it all as this is not "about me", I'm simply referring to it in the context of clusters of unlikely events.

I mean, there is the story of the poor bugger who staggered back to Nagasaki having been caught in the blast at Hiroshima only to get caught in the second blast. What are the odds on that? Further reading suggests official figures in the region of 160 who had a similar experience. But I bet at some point that guy dealt with scepticism and accusations of attention seeking.

Likewise Violet Jessop, a nurse who had a very bad time on the Titanic and then went on to survive two more shipwrecks. Was she spectacularly lucky to survive or unlucky to have been there?

There are statistically millions of clusters of inexplicable events out there that people aren't aware of, which you can be assured of because of the numbers of things that are reported. And dissected. And denied.

Sure people do lie and fabricate for their own gain, be it financial or otherwise. But it's impossible that all do.

So back to the evidence and this case. There is evidence that is demonstrably wrong and demonstrably ambiguous. The expert witnesses job in a criminal court is to explain the evidence to the jury to ensure they understand it not to give their opinion. It's different in Family Law cases - there the standard is the balance of probabilities not "beyond reasonable doubt" or "being sure", so opinion is allowed.

The insulin evidence was easy to present as "proof" because I doubt any person on that jury could have understood the complexities of the science behind it fully. I've tried to read round it on medical sites myself and five minutes in my brain is hurting. Explaining it in layman's terms woyld be quite the task and there are many many variables.... so the court has to rely on the expert witness to make it all simple enough for the jury, who hear "insulin poisoning" and not much else.

Then we get to the argument that the medical evidence is less important than the rest of the circumstantial evidence. But it's the medical evidence that the charges of murder hinge on in the first place. So we're back to square one.

Babies were dying and they shouldn't have been. We must establish why.

Simply saying it must be murder when there are so many other factors at play that have an impact on the events does a grave disservice to the families of the babies, and also, at this stage, to the justice system and the credibility of expert witnesses overall. (Not to mention Lucy Letby who did not get a fair trial).

vivainsomnia · 17/07/2024 11:04

So say that these babies didn't suffer a crisis due to exogenous insulin.

I understand there is no denying that they suffered from hypoglycemia and did so rapidly. Can neonates suffer from sudden hypoglycemia from 'natural causes'?

kkloo · 17/07/2024 11:19

Firefly1987 · 16/07/2024 22:53

How does anyone explain the overfeeding? Negligence again? Or the fact one poor baby projectile vomited further than anyone could imagine a baby that tiny vomiting? Plus babies that cried in a way doctors had never even heard premature babies cry before?!

Yes negligence is a very real possibility considering the doctors left that baby, Child G behind a screen with no monitor switched on and didn't tell any of the nurses.

Lucy Letby was the one who called for help.

If an unnamed nurse hadn't testified saying that the doctors had apologised to her for not switching the monitor back on then Lucy would have definitely been blamed for turning that monitor off too.

When the doctor was asked in court he kept saying he didn't remember but that if the nurse said that that's what happened then presumably that's what happened and that that would have been a serious error.

kkloo · 17/07/2024 11:31

@Firefly1987
Actually they did try to blame her for that one in the prosecutions opening speech, but the nurse heard the prosecutions opening testimony where she was accused of switching off the monitor and then went to speak to the detectives to herself to say that that didn't happen.

I wonder why she wasn't interviewed in the first place seeing as she was surely a witness as to what LL was doing at the time of the attempted murder?? Bizarre

LL was found not guilty of that charge, presumably because the nurse had came forward to show that it was actually the doctors who had turned the monitor off. I wonder were there other nurses with information who didn't come forward even when they heard things that were incorrect during the trial.

LittleCharlotte · 17/07/2024 11:42

There's considerably less evidence against Rose West being a serial killer than there is Letby, but there are few people campaigning for her to have another trial. Odd, that.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 17/07/2024 11:57

LittleCharlotte · 17/07/2024 11:42

There's considerably less evidence against Rose West being a serial killer than there is Letby, but there are few people campaigning for her to have another trial. Odd, that.

I really don't think the cases are in any way comparable.

LittleCharlotte · 17/07/2024 12:04

Don't you? Why not?

MistressoftheDarkSide · 17/07/2024 12:17

LittleCharlotte · 17/07/2024 12:04

Don't you? Why not?

The eye witness testimony of a survivor for one thing.

LittleCharlotte · 17/07/2024 12:20

That's not evidence of murder. Plus you're dismisssing other eyewitness accounts on this very thread. What's to say this witness is telling the truth?

MistressoftheDarkSide · 17/07/2024 12:25

If you feel Rose West is a victim of a miscarriage of justice you are free to discuss it and campaign on her behalf.

Twototwo15 · 17/07/2024 12:47

kkloo · 17/07/2024 11:19

Yes negligence is a very real possibility considering the doctors left that baby, Child G behind a screen with no monitor switched on and didn't tell any of the nurses.

Lucy Letby was the one who called for help.

If an unnamed nurse hadn't testified saying that the doctors had apologised to her for not switching the monitor back on then Lucy would have definitely been blamed for turning that monitor off too.

When the doctor was asked in court he kept saying he didn't remember but that if the nurse said that that's what happened then presumably that's what happened and that that would have been a serious error.

Edited

That’s interesting. Were those who testified against her mainly doctors? No nurses?

LittleCharlotte · 17/07/2024 13:28

MistressoftheDarkSide · 17/07/2024 12:25

If you feel Rose West is a victim of a miscarriage of justice you are free to discuss it and campaign on her behalf.

I'm musing as to why people don't, yet there's a big outcry about Lucy Letby despite a 10 month trial. And I am discussing it. 😆

MistressoftheDarkSide · 17/07/2024 13:49

Well, it really boils down to disputed medical evidence I think and whether juries are best placed to assess it when it's complicated. Many of the experts publicly questioning it want it examined as if it isn't it will further erode the reputation of expert witnesses which has barely recovered from the Meadows debacle.

There isn't that level of concern about the West case, nor has there ever been.

lawnseed · 17/07/2024 13:49

vivainsomnia · 17/07/2024 11:04

So say that these babies didn't suffer a crisis due to exogenous insulin.

I understand there is no denying that they suffered from hypoglycemia and did so rapidly. Can neonates suffer from sudden hypoglycemia from 'natural causes'?

From Googling, yes it is very common and the most common metabolic disturbance amongst neonates.

Paganpentacle · 17/07/2024 14:09

Janiie · 09/07/2024 19:10

For the trillionth time Àllitt looked like a bog standard nurse but we didn't doubt the evidence against her.

It doesn't matter what Letby looks like actual medical experts dispute the stats. Also wasn't the unit downgraded so it doesn't take critically ill babies anymore why do that if she was the only issue?!

Just out of interests- what does a bog-standard nurse look like?

Paganpentacle · 17/07/2024 14:11

Anyone whose worked in the NHS in a clinical capacity will be able to understand scapegoating, cover ups and misogyny.
I'm not convinced she's guilty.

CormorantStrikesBack · 17/07/2024 14:29

Absolutely babies can go hypoglycaemic for natural reasons. Not being kept warm enough can do it, obviously not being fed enough. Being small or prem raises the risk as does having a mother with poorly controlled blood sugars (who may or may not be an identified gestational diabetic).

LittleCharlotte · 17/07/2024 16:00

MistressoftheDarkSide · 17/07/2024 13:49

Well, it really boils down to disputed medical evidence I think and whether juries are best placed to assess it when it's complicated. Many of the experts publicly questioning it want it examined as if it isn't it will further erode the reputation of expert witnesses which has barely recovered from the Meadows debacle.

There isn't that level of concern about the West case, nor has there ever been.

Fair enough, thank you for replying. I understand there not being the same level of concern about West - IMO I don't care whether she is guilty of multiple murders or not (I don't personally think she is, given the very frail evidence against her) - she's an evil, evil person and deserves to be in jail for life. I don't think she would have received her sentence had Fred West not topped himself though.

andjustlikethat1 · 17/07/2024 16:08

I wonder if the jury all had of came from a medical background what the outcome would have been? So many nurses and doctors on the boards saying she could be/is innocent. I am thinking how could a normal woman from an office or a house husband or from a normal professional background understand medical jargon.

user1471538275 · 17/07/2024 16:12

Another one coming on to say hypoglycaemia and premature babies go together like peas and carrots.

user1471538275 · 17/07/2024 16:14

More scientifically:
" Hypoglycemia is one of the most common pathologies encountered in the neonatal intensive care unit and affects a wide range of neonates. Preterm, small for gestational age (GA) and intra-uterine growth restricted neonates are especially vulnerable due to their lack of metabolic reserves and associated co-morbidities. Nearly 30–60% of these high-risk infants are hypoglycemic and require immediate intervention. Preterm neonates are uniquely predisposed to developing hypoglycemia and its associated complications due to their limited glycogen and fat stores, inability to generate new glucose using gluconeogenesis pathways, have higher metabolic demands due to a relatively larger brain size, and are unable to mount a counter-regulatory response to hypoglycemia"

Hypoglycemia in the preterm neonate: etiopathogenesis, diagnosis, management and long-term outcomes

user1471538275 · 17/07/2024 16:40

@MistressoftheDarkSide Way way earlier on this discussion you posted a NG tube feeding leaflet and were asking about introducing air.

I couldn't see if anyone had answered this, apologies if they have.

I'm surprised to see this still suggested, it was fairly common in in the 90's/00's but I thought it was no longer recommended.

We used to push a small amount of air into the NG tube and listen over the stomach to see if we could hear a gurgle of whoosh to confirm it was there - it can also push the tube away from stomach wall if it's curled up or against the side, into the stomach acid - which is what you need to test to confirm safe position. It was felt to be rather inaccurate though.

They do suggest a very large syringe to do it - this is because larger syringes have lower pressure so that would be considered safer.

Edenspirits73 · 17/07/2024 16:41

Article in Private eye also this week- really interesting - sorry it’s not a very clear pic- I can’t find it online!

To think the Lucy Letby case needs a judicial review?
OP posts:
Mirabai · 17/07/2024 16:48

user1471538275 · 17/07/2024 16:14

More scientifically:
" Hypoglycemia is one of the most common pathologies encountered in the neonatal intensive care unit and affects a wide range of neonates. Preterm, small for gestational age (GA) and intra-uterine growth restricted neonates are especially vulnerable due to their lack of metabolic reserves and associated co-morbidities. Nearly 30–60% of these high-risk infants are hypoglycemic and require immediate intervention. Preterm neonates are uniquely predisposed to developing hypoglycemia and its associated complications due to their limited glycogen and fat stores, inability to generate new glucose using gluconeogenesis pathways, have higher metabolic demands due to a relatively larger brain size, and are unable to mount a counter-regulatory response to hypoglycemia"

Hypoglycemia in the preterm neonate: etiopathogenesis, diagnosis, management and long-term outcomes

Tl;dr - essentially it’s common from a range of causes - including prematurity itself, birth trauma eg asphyxia, sepsis, hyperinsulinemia (from diabetic mother or congenital), and certain syndromes and metabolic disorders. There are some medications that if you stop suddenly (eg steroids), without adjusting the glucose, can cause sudden hypoglycemia.

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