To think the Lucy Letby case needs a judicial review?

[Edenspirits73]

2 more detailed articles in main stream papers today questioning the Lucy Letby verdict - mirroring the well known New York Times article that wasn’t allowed here during her trial- surely with this much questioning, there should at least be a judicial review?

aibu?

If she is guilty after review then fair enough, but yet again convictions are being viewed as unsafe.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/09/lucy-letby-serial-killer-or-miscarriage-justice-victim/

And ‘satisfied so you are sure’ is another way of phrasing ‘beyond reasonable doubt’. It does not replace it or have a different burden of proof. It is supposed to be easier to understand.

The opinion of the jury definitely isn't the only relevant thing here.

There is the option of it going to the CCRC and that is part of the justice system also.

And often what will get them to look at the case is outsiders helping to campaign for it, perhaps when some or even all of the experts who are currently 'concerned' may look at the entirety of their evidence and backtrack, or perhaps their opinions will be strengthened. We don't know yet.

I was aware of that thanks!
Beyond reasonable doubt was never meant to sound as subjective as it did, therefore by changing the terminology it was supposed to be less confusing and more robust....so while the actual standard didn't change, it did have implications on how sure people felt they needed to be.

Not an official one but I'm satisfied along with the mountains of evidence that the post it note is indeed a confession.

What was the explanation for it only happening on her shifts? Following her from nights to days, no collapses whilst she was in Ibiza, babies collapsing when she didn't get what she wanted (to be in room 1) etc. I must've missed that. How were there staffing pressures when LL had so much time to text and complain she was bored? Doing feeds was beneath her wasn't it. Such a compassionate nurse!

Here's a random thought.

So surely it would be possible in our technologically advanced times to create a simulation of injecting air into a baby via an NG tube? I'm talking either a virtual computer simulation or creating as life like a dummy as is possible and attempting it manually?

The volume of air required could be assessed and adjusted, and the time it would take measured, which would also establish whether Lucy Letby had the time to do it completely unobserved so many times?

I mean, there are experts reported as saying they don't believe the air embolism theories. Surely some tech whizz could devise a method of testing the theory virtually?

The amount you need to cause damage and even a fatality in a neonate is very small 0.5 - 1ml from what I was reading online last night. That wouldn't take long to introduce.

You're satisfied. Some of us aren't.

I've already said, people have already explained about they didn't just happen on her shift.

I've already discussed her being on holiday with you previously.

I don't know many of the details regarding the day to night shifts, but she got accused (and found guilty) of causing Child N's first collapse at 1am, even though she'd finished her shift at 8pm the night before, and no verdicts were reached for the 2 other attempted murder charges regarding child N (even though they were in the day) So it seems she was found guilty of one of them despite leaving work 5 hours before and they weren't sure about the accusations from when she was working.

Just because Letby was on her phone doesn't mean there wasn't staffing pressures.

There were many collapses when she wasn't there.

You're satisfied. Some of us aren't.

That’s tough because she’s been refused leave to appeal by judges who have forgotten more about the legal system than you’ll ever know. She’s been found guilty, failed to discover any new evidence that justifies an appeal and has now run out of options. I have no doubt that she’s guilty and will remain in custody for the rest of her life.

Oh, ok. You saying, “The standard now is that you are 'satisfied that you are sure' of the guilt, not beyond reasonable doubt,” suggests that they are different standards.

https://www.kentcht.nhs.uk/leaflet/nasogastric-feeding-tube/

Just to play devil's advocate but it seems that injecting air via an NG tube can be part of a clinical procedure.

@kkloo I will go look back over the circumstances of what happened with child N. There were SO many charges it's very hard to keep track.

They're technically the same but understood differently by a lot of people.

Really not sure why you're going on about this.

Most of the jurors were satisfied that they were sure that she committed most of the crimes, to the general population that sounds like a stronger conviction than beyond reasonable doubt so you should be pleased about that!

I knew there was no chance of her getting that appeal anyway.
I fully expected her to remain in jail for decades before any chance of appeal if there was any.

I wasn't expecting to see so many newspaper articles etc so soon at all, but yet they were ready to go as soon as reporting restrictions were lifted.

You don't know how this is going to play out anymore than I do.

I think that's where the confusion lies. I believe I have read she was there for every singles non-explainable collapse, but I am unable to find any sources for that.

at least one of the collapses she wasn’t on shift for. The table showed when she was on shift or ‘thereabouts’ after the defence found an error in it - saying she was on the night shift when she was on day (or possibly the other way round). They changed it to ‘thereabouts’ and said she must have stayed back after her shift or come in early.

1ml of air in the NG tube? You have got to be kidding. Babies swallow air into their tummy all the time. Wonder why they burp and fart? The amount of air needed in the NG tube to cause the stomach to be distended and cause breathing issues would be much larger. I’m not sure how much but it would be a lot.

FYI a NG tube goes into the tummy. You are confusing it with the IV that goes into the vein.

Yes IV not NG tube. The poster was talking about an embolism. I do know what it means.

I wouldn't even imagine that it's possible to cause an embolism by introducing air into the stomach. The prosecution were claiming that excess abdominal gas would prevent the lungs from inflating adequately weren't they? Something which is unproven.

Air into the IV port is what would cause the embolism.

Yeah sorry if I got a bit confused about introduction of air into the babies systems - am a bit over saturated with "research" and appreciate there are two types of thing being referred to. Which absolutely proves the point that a jury could easily get confused too......

Lol no worries. I have to say I bet our Google searches are a bit eye popping these days 🙈

You're satisfied. Some of us aren't.

Which means diddly squat. The people who needed to be satisfied, and who saw and heard all the evidence, were satisfied.

Mind you, the issue of what volume of air is required to cause harm on either case is of interest. Some of what I've read suggests even if air did get into an IV it might "break up" into smaller bubbles and might not be fatal in all cases.

The "stomach air" issue is worth picking apart as stomachs do produce gas anyway, and gas is produced at post mortem. The contention is that so much was pumped in it "splinted" the diaphragm. Whatever that means.

Oh well, back to Google.....

A single word in upper case adds emphasis; it is not perceived as shouting.

One last thought before I give up the ghost for tonight.

I've read quite alot of trial excepts blogs, opinion pieces and articles from both the guilty and innocent perspectives, and it does seem that pretty much every clinical concern about these babies has been retro-fitted at trial to be Lucy Letbys doing. Possible pneumonia / respiratory illness - her doing. Possible bowel blockage - nope her doing. Dodgy blood test results - definitely her doing. Child with haemophilia with bleeding - her doing.

None of these babies were in good and robust condition to start with, but every clinical concern is now down to Lucy Letby. Hmm.