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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the Lucy Letby case needs a judicial review?

1000 replies

Edenspirits73 · 09/07/2024 16:19

2 more detailed articles in main stream papers today questioning the Lucy Letby verdict - mirroring the well known New York Times article that wasn’t allowed here during her trial- surely with this much questioning, there should at least be a judicial review?

aibu?

If she is guilty after review then fair enough, but yet again convictions are being viewed as unsafe.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/09/lucy-letby-serial-killer-or-miscarriage-justice-victim/

Lucy Letby: killer or coincidence? Why some experts question the evidence

Exclusive: Doubts raised over safety of convictions of nurse found guilty of murdering babies

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
lawnseed · 13/07/2024 12:58

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 13/07/2024 12:36

@lawnseed It’s in the Panorama doc and the Daily Mail podcast and other podcasts and articles. None of this stuff is hidden. Did you read the Vanity Fair link I sent from Reddit. I’m astounded people are so set on the idea she’s innocent with such little knowledge of the case.

For example, people make it sound like the hospital investigation was a witch hunt against her when in fact she had the support of the director of nursing and senior hospital admins who were all trying to get the consultants to stop pursuing the idea that she was somehow involved in the spate of collapses. Bear in mind that at this point they were assuming medical negligence and not murder. Between then she, her parents and the nursing director very nearly managed to get the consultants dismissed. This is where the ‘poor Lucy, bad consultants’ narrative begins.

This is also why the police began at a different point to the consultants and started the investigation afresh, to avoid starting with possibly wrong assumptions.

I did see the Panorama documentary. I'm afraid I couldn't get the Vanity Fair article to load.

sunshine244 · 13/07/2024 12:58

Logically if deaths were occuring across two units, and the only person going between the two units was a consultant. And that consultant had been proven to have made serious mistakes with previous cases. Then that consultant suddenly starts to claim a nurse is the cause of deaths on just one of those wards. In evidence changes his story significantly to be more sure of her guilt and add new details...

To me the consultant seems a far better fit to initially investigate and suspect than LL.

If you can blame LL for an insulin incident when she wasn't even in the hospital surely you would have to open up the table of incidents to other people who had contact with these babies previously too?

None of the stats seen to make sense (not that that doesn't mean she couldn't be guilty).

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 13/07/2024 13:05

@lawnseed It been pulled from
online reporting restrictions- which put paid to the idea that the negative articles are being censored!

Some on Reddit is transcribing it from the physical magazine.

Oftenaddled · 13/07/2024 13:42

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 13/07/2024 12:48

@Oftenaddled That is really not what happened. You need to go back and read the case properly. She was not arrested on consultant suspicions. She wasn’t arrest until nearly a year into the investigation when the people had independently come to the conclusion that she was a possible suspect.

Thanks @Ratsoffasinkingsauage

That's my point. There wasn't one big conspiracy against her - not a witch-hunt. There doesn't need to have been a coordinated conspiracy against Letby for the consultants to have been working to a constructed narrative.

Oftenaddled · 13/07/2024 13:50

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 13/07/2024 12:57

@MistressoftheDarkSide Searching the families on Facebook. Those searches were grouped by either attack method or particular anniversaries.

Haven't seen this anywhere yet?

placemats · 13/07/2024 14:23

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 13/07/2024 12:57

@MistressoftheDarkSide Searching the families on Facebook. Those searches were grouped by either attack method or particular anniversaries.

There were no internet searches found on any device Letby owned about any of the methods by which the babies were said to have died.

BIossomtoes · 13/07/2024 14:26

placemats · 13/07/2024 14:23

There were no internet searches found on any device Letby owned about any of the methods by which the babies were said to have died.

Why would there need to be? She was a qualified, experienced neonatal nurse, she’d know better than anyone how to kill a baby.

placemats · 13/07/2024 14:37

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

placemats · 13/07/2024 14:40

Please ignore my post above.

@BIossomtoes and yet one of the parents found a doctor googling on how to proceed with an emergency involving one of her babies.

BewaretheIckabog · 13/07/2024 14:44

Appreciate I am relatively new to this discussion but all the speculation why the defence didn’t bring their experts out at trial seems to miss the most obvious explanation.

They may have secured experts but none of their evidence was compelling enough, may actually have cast more doubts or would not stand up to cross-examination.

Just because they paid for experts doesn’t mean they got the answers they wanted.

kkloo · 13/07/2024 15:05

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 13/07/2024 10:02

@kkloo You implied that a full investigation hadn’t been done and that there needed to be one. There has been an entirely thorough, years long investigation into these incidents. It ended with the trial of Lucy Letby and her conviction.

Just because you don’t like the outcome doesn’t mean it wasn’t a fair and thorough investigation.

Picking through sound bite and bits of interviews with experts who haven’t seen the evidence to justify your viewpoint is a pretty flawed method of proving your point. You, very much like Lucy, are claiming that you know better than every person involved in the investigation, trial and conviction. Does that not strike you as hubristic and arrogant?

I don't believe the investigation was anywhere near robust or good enough.

I think you'll find that you're coming across as extremely hubristic and arrogant yourself.

I see you're also continuing to say to another poster I'm accusing the police of 'fitting her up'. I've already clarified that in no way am I doing that. I do think that they believe she did it.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 13/07/2024 15:05

BewaretheIckabog · 13/07/2024 14:44

Appreciate I am relatively new to this discussion but all the speculation why the defence didn’t bring their experts out at trial seems to miss the most obvious explanation.

They may have secured experts but none of their evidence was compelling enough, may actually have cast more doubts or would not stand up to cross-examination.

Just because they paid for experts doesn’t mean they got the answers they wanted.

In theory that is likely the defences position coming from a background od legal expertise. However, their one expert has since said publicly he was prepared to give a damn good go at planting doubt on the medical evidence provided by the prosecution. It does make one wonder why the team weren't prepared to go down fighting in that case.

I suspect that as the case had been solved in the court of public opinion it was deemed too high a risk. Who wants to defend such an obvious monster? Except - perhaps she isn't.

Golaz · 13/07/2024 15:36

BewaretheIckabog · 13/07/2024 14:44

Appreciate I am relatively new to this discussion but all the speculation why the defence didn’t bring their experts out at trial seems to miss the most obvious explanation.

They may have secured experts but none of their evidence was compelling enough, may actually have cast more doubts or would not stand up to cross-examination.

Just because they paid for experts doesn’t mean they got the answers they wanted.

Except that experts have come out publicly with arguments in favour of the defence and they are compelling. For example, Dr Lee- his paper about air embolism was used by the prosecution as evidence against Letby. he has since come out and explained that the way his paper was presented was misleading
/ wrong and the evidence doesn’t prove air embolism at all. How could that possibly have not helped the defence if it were put to the jury?

lawnseed · 13/07/2024 15:42

Golaz · 13/07/2024 15:36

Except that experts have come out publicly with arguments in favour of the defence and they are compelling. For example, Dr Lee- his paper about air embolism was used by the prosecution as evidence against Letby. he has since come out and explained that the way his paper was presented was misleading
/ wrong and the evidence doesn’t prove air embolism at all. How could that possibly have not helped the defence if it were put to the jury?

Edited

This is pretty damning to be fair and the defence medical expert being sure he could have cast enough doubt. This is very suspicious that he wasn't given the chance. I wonder if he asked them why?

MistressoftheDarkSide · 13/07/2024 15:53

Didn't they try to bring him in at the appeal and the court said no because it should have been done at trial ? I'll go Google.

BewaretheIckabog · 13/07/2024 16:01

It’s different giving your opinion about a high-profile case to the media rather than being cross-examined in a court.

The reason the defence didn’t use the experts is most likely because their evidence was not worth it or would be refuted.

kkloo · 13/07/2024 16:02

MistressoftheDarkSide · 13/07/2024 15:53

Didn't they try to bring him in at the appeal and the court said no because it should have been done at trial ? I'll go Google.

According to the report

As to why it was not adduced at trial, he (Myers) contends that it was only as the trial progressed that the prosecution experts began to rely upon a wide variety of skin discolouration as a basis for diagnosing air embolus, thereby departing from their initial apparent acceptance that the only skin discolouration which could properly be regarded as diagnostic was the “bright pink vessels against a generally cyanosed cutaneous background” noted in one case described in the Lee and Tanswell paper. For that reason, the evidence was not available to be deployed at the time when it would have been required, and it was only after the trial that thought was given to seeking evidence from Dr Lee.

But then the next point said
The respondent submits that the proposed fresh evidence, being defence evidence, cannot be relevant to ground 2. Nor, it is submitted, is it capable of giving rise to a ground for allowing the appeal, because it isolates the subjective observations of the various witnesses as to the skin discolouration which they saw in individual cases and takes no account of all the other evidence relied upon by the prosecution – including the evidence repeatedly given by doctors and nurses as to the extraordinary nature of the sudden collapses and deaths of the babies concerned. In doing so, it is argued, the applicant treats as a paradigm what was no more than a single case noted in the Lee and Tanswell paper, which itself was no more than an observational study (and was criticised for that reason in the defence cross-examination of Professor Arthurs). Mr Johnson emphasises that the prosecution expert witnesses did not treat skin discolouration as in itself diagnostic of air embolus, but instead took it into account as consistent with air embolus and adding to the other clinical circumstances which excluded other possible causes and pointed to that diagnosis. He argues that the prosecution case did not change in this regard, and submits that the applicant could and should have called Dr Lee at trial if she wished to rely on evidence from him.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 13/07/2024 16:15

Hmm. Cherry picking or nit-picking then?

So the prosecution painted a big picture with many components. During trial, the defences job is to propose a different picture, and to deconstruct and challenge elements of the prosecutions picture. At least that's how it was supposed to work I thought.

Subtle things indeed subject to legal nuance such as "not diagnostic of" but "consistent with.

Lots of picking.

lawnseed · 13/07/2024 16:22

One has to wonder if a jury would have the intellect and capacity to be able to understand the medical information presented to them, particularly as it can be so nuanced. I know they're hand picked, but to be overheard gossiping in a shop about it is pretty bad and wouldn't inspire much confidence.

Golaz · 13/07/2024 16:39

BewaretheIckabog · 13/07/2024 16:01

It’s different giving your opinion about a high-profile case to the media rather than being cross-examined in a court.

The reason the defence didn’t use the experts is most likely because their evidence was not worth it or would be refuted.

Oh come on. If it can be refuted in the court room, it can be refuted in the court of public opinion/ the papers/ the public debate. So go on…

Cattery · 13/07/2024 17:00

I’ve just read the whole New Yorker article and it does make interesting reading. I’m not arguing that LL is innocent but the hospital especially neonatal and maternity services were very poor around that time

placemats · 13/07/2024 18:08

MistressoftheDarkSide · 13/07/2024 16:00

No it's not. They both have a book coming out. They stand to make money from this. Court reporters.

Kriscross · 13/07/2024 18:11

She was found guilty on evidence presented.

Is there new evidence @Edenspirits73

If not, no appeal or any more money spent on this woman

MistressoftheDarkSide · 13/07/2024 18:20

placemats · 13/07/2024 18:08

No it's not. They both have a book coming out. They stand to make money from this. Court reporters.

Oh my mistake. It obviously doesn't answer any if the questions about evidence, appeals, experts not called or defence strategy, which is what we were discussing on the thread when I shared it. Obviously total rubbish 🙄

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