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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the Lucy Letby case needs a judicial review?

1000 replies

Edenspirits73 · 09/07/2024 16:19

2 more detailed articles in main stream papers today questioning the Lucy Letby verdict - mirroring the well known New York Times article that wasn’t allowed here during her trial- surely with this much questioning, there should at least be a judicial review?

aibu?

If she is guilty after review then fair enough, but yet again convictions are being viewed as unsafe.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/09/lucy-letby-serial-killer-or-miscarriage-justice-victim/

Lucy Letby: killer or coincidence? Why some experts question the evidence

Exclusive: Doubts raised over safety of convictions of nurse found guilty of murdering babies

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
CantFindMyMarbles · 10/07/2024 19:38

whenever I see posts like this. I wonder if people lack critical thinking skills. Read the fact. Read the evidence. All of the evidence. Not just the minuscule selected bits picked by a few people.
she deserves the death penalty. Shame we don’t have it.

Gwenhwyfar · 10/07/2024 19:39

"which is a bit off a coincidence"

Coincidences aren't proof though, are they? That's the whole point of the comparison with Sally Clark.

BIossomtoes · 10/07/2024 19:41

There’s no valid comparison with Sally Clarke.

PinkyFlamingo · 10/07/2024 19:43

EC22 · 09/07/2024 18:52

I think she is innocent.
i don’t think any of the children were murdered.
it is a travesty of justice and a tragedy for the parents.
truth will out. Eventualy

Someone else who thinks they know better than all the professionals involved, laughable

kkloo · 10/07/2024 19:48

CantFindMyMarbles · 10/07/2024 19:38

whenever I see posts like this. I wonder if people lack critical thinking skills. Read the fact. Read the evidence. All of the evidence. Not just the minuscule selected bits picked by a few people.
she deserves the death penalty. Shame we don’t have it.

I'd say the same about many on the 'she's 100% guilty' side.

Read the articles, read the substack, there is definitely no lack of critical thinking skills in many of their arguments.

Even read the day by day evidence in the chester standard, the doctors all saying the babies were in 'good condition' while describing babies who were anything but.

But people read 'good condition' in isolation and ignore everything else that was stated about the health of the babies.

Gwenhwyfar · 10/07/2024 19:53

PinkyFlamingo · 10/07/2024 19:43

Someone else who thinks they know better than all the professionals involved, laughable

And the professionals involved in all the other miscarriages of justice?

Mirabai · 10/07/2024 19:57

Sally Clarke is a perfectly valid comparison. Complete with dodgy expert witness who will end up on the same discredited heap.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 10/07/2024 20:00

I don’t know better than experts. I don’t know about law or medicine, I have barely been inside a hospital let alone an NICU.
But what is giving me pause in this case is how much of the disquiet is coming from people who DO know about these things. When there are experts on both sides disagreeing it no longer becomes possible to passively believe the experts and it doesn’t make you an armchair detective to want to try to understand what the hell is going on.

Edenspirits73 · 10/07/2024 20:06

CantFindMyMarbles · 10/07/2024 19:38

whenever I see posts like this. I wonder if people lack critical thinking skills. Read the fact. Read the evidence. All of the evidence. Not just the minuscule selected bits picked by a few people.
she deserves the death penalty. Shame we don’t have it.

Thank god we don’t have the death penalty anymore.

When I think about the likes of the Guildford 4 and what they went through, major miscarriages of justice happen way more regularly than they should.

The death penalty would be a disaster.

OP posts:
Bernardo1 · 10/07/2024 20:36

Why? No.

Do you think Trump should be reprieved?
on the basis of what a London Times writer might think?

MaryEllenWaldron · 10/07/2024 20:43

How much of your concern about a possible miscarriage of justice is based on the premise that she looks like a really nice person; exactly the sort of face most of us would trust in any position of care and responsibility? I know I would have done. The consultant paediatricians who first raised the alarm with the hospital (and were ignored) found it almost impossible to believe as well.

kkloo · 10/07/2024 20:48

MaryEllenWaldron · 10/07/2024 20:43

How much of your concern about a possible miscarriage of justice is based on the premise that she looks like a really nice person; exactly the sort of face most of us would trust in any position of care and responsibility? I know I would have done. The consultant paediatricians who first raised the alarm with the hospital (and were ignored) found it almost impossible to believe as well.

None of my concern is based on that.
I'd say it's the same for most people.

Clafoutie · 10/07/2024 20:58

CantFindMyMarbles · 10/07/2024 19:38

whenever I see posts like this. I wonder if people lack critical thinking skills. Read the fact. Read the evidence. All of the evidence. Not just the minuscule selected bits picked by a few people.
she deserves the death penalty. Shame we don’t have it.

But surely the opposite is true, that critical thinking skills mean that you are open to engaging with a different view point, should it emerge at a later date, as in the case of this journalism, which has come forward as reporting restrictions have lifted. Doing so doesn’t mean you have to have your mind changed, or ignore previous evidence, just not be entirely closed off.
What did/would the death penalty achieve?

Carriemac · 10/07/2024 21:20

BIossomtoes · 10/07/2024 19:41

There’s no valid comparison with Sally Clarke.

I've always had my doubts about Sally Clarke .

Reugny · 10/07/2024 21:32

chemicalworld · 10/07/2024 14:45

She was found guilty by a jury who had deliberated for hours over huge amounts of evidence.

These articles are misleading, and do not include very important parts of the prosecution.

I got very invested in this and read a huge amount about it - there is no mistake, she is guilty.

I agree with you due to knowing people who were involved in other high profile cases at a particular time.

Newspaper articles on the Court hearing where the defendant(s) aren't anonymous are misleading.

They leave out facts even if neither party has any hope of appealing. It wasn't to prevent other people copying them.

Reugny · 10/07/2024 21:36

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 10/07/2024 20:00

I don’t know better than experts. I don’t know about law or medicine, I have barely been inside a hospital let alone an NICU.
But what is giving me pause in this case is how much of the disquiet is coming from people who DO know about these things. When there are experts on both sides disagreeing it no longer becomes possible to passively believe the experts and it doesn’t make you an armchair detective to want to try to understand what the hell is going on.

There was nothing preventing her calling experts in her defence at her trial. She chose not to.

Other people accused of horrific crimes do so even if the experts are reported by the newspapers as saying absurd things in their defence.

Remember all she had to do is cast enough reasonable doubt on the cases she was put on trial for to get off.

Edenspirits73 · 10/07/2024 21:42

Carriemac · 10/07/2024 21:20

I've always had my doubts about Sally Clarke .

Sally Clarke was completely exonerated of any wrong doing and then died of alcoholism because of the toll the death of her 2 children and then having to serve time in prison having been falsely accused took on her.

Jesus.

OP posts:
BileBeansSara · 10/07/2024 21:50

HairyFeline · 09/07/2024 21:15

The main thing that I recall from an interview with a Dr from the hospital was a comparison between the number of deaths related to this type of presentation of critical illness and circumstance during and after LL was working there. Zero cases after she was no longer there. Multiple during.

This is not evidence though. After she left the unit was downgraded to not take such critically ill babies so there would have been fewer deaths.

kkloo · 10/07/2024 21:59

Reugny · 10/07/2024 21:36

There was nothing preventing her calling experts in her defence at her trial. She chose not to.

Other people accused of horrific crimes do so even if the experts are reported by the newspapers as saying absurd things in their defence.

Remember all she had to do is cast enough reasonable doubt on the cases she was put on trial for to get off.

We don't know if she chose not to or not or how she was advised.

It's not like she was able to sit in her cell with a laptop and mobile phone and contact loads of experts herself. It was the defences job to do all of that and then put it to Letby.

kkloo · 10/07/2024 22:01

BileBeansSara · 10/07/2024 21:50

This is not evidence though. After she left the unit was downgraded to not take such critically ill babies so there would have been fewer deaths.

Yes it was downgraded so would no longer care for high risk babies AND they hired two new consultants were added to relieve staffing pressures also.

Tandora · 10/07/2024 22:05

CantFindMyMarbles · 10/07/2024 19:38

whenever I see posts like this. I wonder if people lack critical thinking skills. Read the fact. Read the evidence. All of the evidence. Not just the minuscule selected bits picked by a few people.
she deserves the death penalty. Shame we don’t have it.

Critical thinking skills is what is causing people to question the evidence.

And the death penalty? Thank god we live in a more civilised society than that. If you’re so into state sponsored murder I suggest moving to Texas or something and leaving the rest of us to it.

Edenspirits73 · 10/07/2024 22:14

Tandora · 10/07/2024 22:05

Critical thinking skills is what is causing people to question the evidence.

And the death penalty? Thank god we live in a more civilised society than that. If you’re so into state sponsored murder I suggest moving to Texas or something and leaving the rest of us to it.

Yes there is a certain irony about that poster commenting about critical thinking skills and then supporting the death penalty…

OP posts:
MistressoftheDarkSide · 10/07/2024 22:40

The problem with a case like this is that if it has not been conducted to the highest standards and proven beyond a reasonable doubt it does untold harm in every direction.

It piles agony on grieving parents. It may destroy the life of an innocent party. It casts doubt on authority be it judicial, criminal or medical. It adds to growing distrust of those charged with upholding our institutions who have been shown over and over again to have demonstrated self service and corruption from government down, and will put off people from working in those fields who might have "pure"motives.

There is group think, arse covering and yes "conspiracy" demonstrated time and time again for a variety of reasons, very often financial sometimes ideological.

Thanks to the Internet and access to more information than we have ever had before, the days of blind acceptance of authority are long gone, which is both a blessing and a curse. It means that in a case like this evidence should be of the highest standard possible, and frankly, the doubts being voiced by other experts, so soon after this allegedly robust conviction is an unusual occurrence.

Only Lucy Letby knows for sure if she is guilty. In the absence of confession, the circumstantial evidence may appear damning enough but on finer points of medical controversy when a judge directs a jury that if they think one death may be due to one mechanism, it's OK to apply it to other unexplained deaths, I think we're on rocky ground to be honest.

Miscarriages of justice do occur. The system is a juggernaut which, once rolling is difficult to slow down. In such an emotive case complete impartiality from all parties is almost impossible to maintain or guarantee.

Which is why transparency and scrutiny is required for the sake of all concerned.

Most people never get caught up in the system and assume it "works" as per guidelines, protocols etc. Some of us who have been caught up in it get a very rude awakening when we realise that "telling the truth" is not necessarily the answer and it becomes a Kafkaesque game of strategy. And often when we try to bring it to people's attention, the idea that our experiences are real is so terrifying and abhorrent that it's written off as delusion and paranoia or just "bad luck".

But I digress, as the point I'm trying to make is that there are grieving parents out there watching a three ring circus that apparently could have been avoided if "expert medical testimony" had been handled differently. We've been here before with Sally Clark and Angela Cannings, the Webster case etc. And that is why if this conviction is unsafe, a review is a matter of urgency.

Amybelle88 · 10/07/2024 22:55

There was unbiased, detailed court reporting at the time that covered everything.

There is also someone on YouTube who has transcribed and uploaded these transcripts in voice format - they're worth a listen.

Those articles are cherry picked information and to get the full picture you should really listen to it all. She's as guilty as sin in my opinion, although I really struggle to put her face to the crimes which I think is a common issue for people.

Firefly1987 · 10/07/2024 22:57

Tandora · 10/07/2024 22:05

Critical thinking skills is what is causing people to question the evidence.

And the death penalty? Thank god we live in a more civilised society than that. If you’re so into state sponsored murder I suggest moving to Texas or something and leaving the rest of us to it.

But why were collapses only happening when LL was alone in the room/seconds after she'd just left? How come the babies who were ok were moved to another hospital or were never left alone by family? LL didn't get a chance to do anything to them that's why. I keep asking what people expect in terms of evidence and no one can say? You know the unit doesn't have CCTV, you know whatever she did would've taken seconds. So what "smoking gun" are you expecting? She was practically caught at least twice by the doctor and a mum who heard her baby screaming and LL fobbed her off. That's as close as anyone was ever going to get to catching her in the act.

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