To be a private school parent who doesn't mind the VAT?

[PrincessOfPreschool]

I just wanted to write this to show the other side. Not all private school parents are moaning and I think it's the ones who understand the spectrum of society and their privilege within it, who aren't the ones moaning.

Writing on behalf of my friend who is not on MN but is sick and tired of all the school WhatsApps going round bemoaning VAT. She thinks it's fair, she's happy to pay it. She's aware of her privilege.

She has one son in state school (with SEN) and one in private school. So she knows both systems. She's grateful for the privilege of being able to send one child privately. Most of her close friends (her children went to state primary) do not have children in private school. She's sensitive to her privilege.

She is firmly in the real world. She works for the NHS and she's a bit shocked at the lack of awareness of privilege that all this moaning is showing. She's not at all wealthy but they have enough for the VAT because they don't spend much on other stuff.

These people do exist!

I don’t really mind the VAT. I have one child and I can afford to give him the education I have chosen for him regardless of VAT.
I will still vote Conservative though!

@Begsthequestion most people would not have heard of the school for a start! So it's not going to sway anyone on an application form.

And the smaller schools are going to be hit hardest as they will be impacted most if some pupils have to leave because of the increase in fees, and these schools won't have the reserves to take the hit of paying output VAT without passing most of it over to the parents.

This also is so true! And same goes for eg GDST schools like the one where my girl goes, and my eldest son’s private, where I saw half the city sitting the 11+ entrance exam - many of them eg Asian families sacrificing their savings because they live in not so great catchment, and believe in education.

I don't think all independent schools provide the kind of privileges you are talking about. They're basically exam factories. However, if what you want to do is get rid of the kind of old school tie networks you are talking about - those schools have the highest fees and parents are most likely to be able to pay the VAT and carry on using them. They tend to oversubscribed, as well, so not likely to close if VAT puts a few off. The only way to get rid of them is to abolish them - not charge them a bit of tax, which they can pay from their large estates.

Do you think it's easy for people to earn money, work hard to get a good degree etc etc. The middle class people have worked hard to position themselves such that they can afford this.

Have there been any promises that the VAT earned from taxing private education will be ring-fenced to go back into spending on comprehensive schools?

It is funny how Labour seem so happy to have attracted the super wealthy and champagne socialists over this policy. It's the ones in the middle who are the targets from both sides.

Also interesting OP doesn't say what the husband and father does. Banker, noooo, he'll be a surgeon or something for sure. So worthier than a single mum like me of course.

I don't know about ALL private schools vs state regarding SEN. I only know of 3 friends: two had terrible experiences with private school. The other (the one involved in this story), did not even consider the private school her other son goes to as the one with SEN would never have passed their 11+ (it's competitive). Oh, and a child I work with (nursery) who clearly has some kind of special needs is not being allowed to attend his sister's private school. They had him in their nursery for a very short time and did he could no longer go there and they would not be accepting him to reception. So, from admittedly limited experience, private schools aren't that great with SEN.

Why would you presume those in state schools don't get private tutoring? Many do.

You can't be serious.

People of all classes work hard and have degrees. The vast majority of middle class people - teachers, police, etc..still couldn't afford private education.

Well they won’t be after the richer parents are back in the state sector paying more money for tutoring and pricing everyone else out, will they? There aren’t infinite tutors to go around 😂

This is key though. It seems to be blithely assumed that this is a policy who just hurts people who everyone perceived as just that but wealthier than they are. Only once those people are forced to move back to the state sector, they are then pricing you out of your child’s tutoring/catchment place/extracurricular activities. Or they’re hoovering up the bursaries that no longer get offered to poorer kids to stay in private. (Nobody seems to have considered this: that instead of offering bursaries to poor kids, the schools will be keeping them for their existing pupils who are affected by the VAT rise).

And ultimately, none of this actually makes education less stratified, because the very rich and the public schools carry on as before: the wealthiest parents can absorb the cost and the schools just take more of the kids of the super-rich from overseas who don’t care either - it’s no loss to Eton or Rugby if they take a few less bursary kids and a few more children of Korean businessmen or Russian oligarchs, is it? But it’s the small prep in Cornwall or Leicestershire that ends up having to close, with the loss of jobs and so on. What an own goal of a policy - it does nothing to genuinely address inequality, punishes a few middle income kids, and actually entrenches the position of the top independent schools.

Good for your very smug ‘friend’. I’m assuming she’s only ok with this because she won’t be one of those having to pull her happy, settled child out of their school?

The bursaries thing is interesting. I've wondered if my friends using their inheritance could potentially now be back in with a bursary claim, as the costings must have to go up on what savings are allowed, surely?

Of course they do (especially to get into selective grammar schools and to continue performing at a high level). But these are not the schools that need improvement or deprived! My point was more for state schools that don’t perform well, where Labour are trying to make it a level playing field, it still won’t be as parents can still buy a level of education via tutoring, and not all tutors are equal (I.e. group v one to one).

Don't be daft @asterel
Private kids are tutored every bit as much as state.
At my DC's very ropey comp I knew no one who paid for tutoring. It's a myth that we all top up. We could
afford it but my kids didn't need help. Most other parents simply can't afford it.

Tutors are two a penny. There are plenty to go round and it’s getting ever more popular as a way to earn extra cash.. Anybody can do it. A couple of hours tutoring a week isn’t in any way going to make up for the inequalities private education causes.

What is the point of this thread? To convince state school parents that some of us private school parents are actually really great people. That we are so moral that we’re happy to bend over and take the VAT hit and we carry a flag around stating how sorry we are to be privileged and that our recognition of this fact should appease them?

What a bizarre response.

A tutor is a tutor....a professional with an hourly late and x number of sessions available weekly. Why on earth would your presume a private school parent could usurp an existing pupil with an agreed contract?

That made me chuckle.

I agree there are many tutors out there, but as I said before not all tutors are equal. My 18 year old nephew also tutors, he is very bright but as he has limited experience doesn’t charge much. When my eldest sat the 11 plus I went through quite a few mediocre ones until I found some amazing tutors. These tutors are actually full time teachers in state school and earning extra money on the side. Everyone is just trying to survive. I might even set up my own tutoring company, the demand right now is crazy, it will only increase with ex-private school students moving to state.

Being a teacher doesn’t make a jot of difference. You can buy the materials anywhere. I am a teacher and saw the materials used by the supposedly top company everybody uses in our area. Anybody with a brain could buy the materials on Amazon and work through them with their kids. A couple of hours a week and sending kids off with hours of homework to do at home is sadly a waste of money.

Maybe for you it’s a waste of money, and you probably have the time to sit with your kids. Having found amazing tutors (after several bad ones) I can honestly say it was worth every penny.

I don't have kids in private school so have no skin in the game other than not wanting the state system to be crashed by loads of people who can no longer afford private.
VAT is not insignificant especially in the current cost of living. This is going to push a lot of people over the edge and ultimately put more pressure on state.

Why bizarre? Surely it’s basic economics? The tutors round here have long waiting lists and the best ones charge more than the less good ones. Just like the best music teachers round here have long waiting lists and charge more than the less good ones. I’ve done a fair bit of private tutoring and I get very good results. As a result I can charge twice or three times most tutors because good tutoring is actually quite scarce, not “two a penny” 😂 And if there’s more demand, I’ll charge even more. (After all, got to pay that extra VAT!)

Quite seriously though - I live in an area with a lot of overseas parents willing to spend a lot of money on tutoring. (You would not believe how much you can earn from tutoring overseas pupils, for example.) Do you think if there is increased demand for tutoring, the availability and prices will be the same? Plus, there is no “agreed contract” that you speak of. You’re providing services (“contract for services”) not employment; it’s usually an informal arrangement session by session; and so you can charge what you like and change the terms of your prices as you like - just as when you go to the hairdresser and they’ve put the prices up, you either pay the new price or you walk away: you can’t complain that you had an “agreed contract” to pay the amount you paid last month.

Agree 100% that is also my experience of overseas parents and the cost of excellent tutors!

In your last post you said state school pupils wouldn't be receiving tuition anymore once there was an influx of private students.

It won't make any difference for the vast majority that's what I find bizarre.

I can't speak for others but we certainly have an a contract - some are term by term, some by academic year. I can't believe you're suggesting that a professional would breach this. Do you think so little of your tutors? They won't throw over long term clients with whom they have established relationships. We are always given first refusal when timetables are drawn up.

If at the end of the contract they increase their prices, so what? Why are you presuming state school parents who are already paying for additional tuition don't have the resources?

The more I read from some private school parents the more I see so many ridiculous assumptions that don't appear to reflect reality.