To ask advice about obligation to report historic sex abuse?

[TallTreesPinkTrees]

NC for this.

An adult friend, let's call her Ann, told me that a now deceased male relative abused her for years from when she was 10-16ish.

The male died last year. Ann is now 30.

Ann tried to tell her mum as a child and again as a young adult but her mum (it turns out) was also terrified of this male, powerless to do anything, and so did not support her. Since his death, Ann's mum has acknowledged the abuse, and they are trying to repair their relationship.

My friend has been told by our other friend (lets call her Jane) that Ann needs to report this historic abuse to the police. Ann does not want to. Ann's reasons are that she is 99.9% sure it did not happen to her siblings, and the only kids in the family are Ann's who have never met him.

Jane works for the NHS and has had a lot of safeguarding training. She says that safeguarding states Ann should tell the police because Ann cannot be certain no-one else was harmed. Ann is very upset and does not feel able to make a disclosure, she also feels it is pointless now he is dead, and she does not want to cause problems in the wider family.

Ann would like to have counselling and is now worried that the counsellor would be obliged to tell the police. Can a counsellor do this? Can Jane tell the police without Ann's consent? (Jane knows who the man is.)

thank you

Jane is absolutely wrong. There would be a duty to report to Social Care if the abuser was still alive and had access to children in his work or personal life. It's unlikely Ann was the only victim, but the reporting advice is bunkum. Jane can't be stopped from telling the police, but they won't do anything. Extensive NHS/Safeguarding experience here.

Ann has no obligation to report her abuse. In terms of a counsellor, mandated reporting laws in safeguarding are designed to protect people who can't protect themselves, or people who are in imminent harm. If there isn't a person being currently abused or at risk of abuse, the counsellor has no safeguarding duty. Jane could report, but without Ann’s cooperation the police aren’t going to have any ability to take a case forward - and Jane is going to cause more damage to Ann doing this when Ann has been clear she doesn’t want to report.

Forgot to say, a counsellor won't tell the police, but Ann should check confidentiality if worried.

Jane needs to mind her own business. Ann's trauma is hers to deal with as she needs to.

Tell Jane to mind her own fucking business.

Jane needs to fuck off.

No one has any form of obligation to report their abuser, and neither is it their responsibility if they aren’t the only victim of their abuser.

Jane is totally wrong, this is totally up to Ann. It would be different if the abuser were still alive and potentially with access to children, if that were the case then a counsellor would probably have to disclose, but in this scenario there is no reason for them to. Safeguarding is about protecting children from harm, not about investigating past crimes.

Anne can do whatever she likes.

you do not have to report abuse unless you think it could be ongoing etc with someone else. He’s dead. Jane should be much more supportive of Anne - her abuser did accept boundaries Jane should.

Jane is wrong and needs to revisit her training

no one is obligated to report anything that has happened to them

Yes. No, a counsellor won’t tell the police, and Ann has no obligation to report the actions of a dead man in case he also abused others — what good would that do? I was abused when I was nine and have talked about it a lot with my therapist. The man is long dead. There’s no one to protect from him, and even if there were, I would consider my own feelings first. I didn’t get that choice aged nine.

Jane is an idiot and clearly needs to resit her safeguarding training.

Even if it’s ongoing or you believe your abuser is still abusing you are in no way obligated to report

I'm not sure what Jane thinks the police would do given that the offender is dead.

You do not take power and control away from a victim / survivor of abuse by reporting someone who is already dead.

Thank you. I'm with Ann and feel Jane is overstepping. Jane's position is that others might have been abused, too, and they might be suffering in silence because Ann won't report it. Ann has a sibling with learning difficulties and it is this person that Jane seems focussed on. Ann is as sure as she can be that this sibling was not abused but of course she can't be 100% sure. It's very upsetting for all concerned.

thank you for comments, it's really helpful.

Professionals have a requirement to report safeguarding concerns.

Ann isn't a professional and has no requirement to report.

If Ann told her counsellor, the counsellor would have to make a judgement as to whether anyone else was at risk, eg if the perp was living with children. Clearly if the guy is dead there's no risk.

Irrespective of the guy having since died, if anyone does want to talk about abuse to a counsellor, the counsellor should make it clear that IF they have identifying details and IF they felt there were risks to others they would have a duty to share. A very common agreement is along the lines of 'don't tell me the name if you don't want me to have to consider passing this on'.

Jane needs to wind her nasty little neck in 😡

#@TallTreesPinkTrees

Jane is definitely right about the fact that Ann's sibling cause they have speacial needs makes them even more vunerable to abusive situations such as this,

It wouldn't be susprised if he sexually abused others or one more too.

I definitely think Ann needs to have good therapy as soon as possible to start healing process etc..

Jane needs to support her friend or mind her fucking business.

Safeguarding is important but who does Jane think is being safeguarded here?

So she's happy to re-traumatise someone to follow her interpretation of guidelines?

If he was alive and she was concerned then yes she could report it via safeguarding to ensure nobody else was at risk. It's up to others if they wish to engage and share their history. Without a conviction or confirmation it can get difficult though.

However I'm not sure a dead man is a risk currently FFS. I mean I've worked with offenders but I've never been asked to risk assess a dead one

If Janes had lots of safeguarding training then it's either not very good or she wasn't listening. No victim is ever obliged to tell anyone anything. Many victims go their whole life without disclosing their abuse. It's their choice.
Is Jane confused about the obligation on professionals to report? It's highly unlikely a counsellor would report an adult seeking counselling for csa when the abuser is dead.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-to-tackle-child-sexual-abuse
He's dead. The police would only be interested if there's a possibility he was part of a group and other members are still alive.

Has Jane not noticed that the abuser is dead?

Yes, he might well have abused others but he can hardly be prosecuted now he is no longer alive. What outcome is Jane expecting, exhumation?

Jane sounds as if she is not very bright and needs to shut up.

Thank you, and I'm so sorry to hear that this has happened to some of you and you were not able to make your own choices.

Ann is worried that even if she does not say the name of the abuser to the counsellor, as soon as she says who the relative was, that would make it easy for the police to know if the counsellor told them. She wants to protect her sibling with learning difficulties because it would be obvious to the police they were at the same risk from this man, i.e. they all lived in the same house.

Thank you to those saying the counsellor could talk to Ann about confidentiality beforehand, I didn't know that. Ann does not want to negatively effect her relationship with her sibling and she and her mum are trying to rebuild there relationship.

Can only repeat what others have said here. Jane is not correct.

As PP have said, as the abuser is dead, the only reason to report this to the police that I can see is if there were any possibility of some kind of “ring” situation with other members possibly still alive.

This. It’s nothing to do with Jane.