To think secondary students should get written school reports

[Giovannimilanese]

When I say ‘written’ I mean typed out, not necessarily hand written

I was going through my own old school reports from the 80s/90s recently. Twice a year there was a full written report with a paragraph from every subject teacher. I found it really interesting to read the observations and to see the way some of the teachers noticed skills/talents and weaknesses that I personally only became fully aware of much later.

My own dc have attended a mix of state/private schools. The Indies still provide decent reports with detail but my youngest is in Yr8 at the local state secondary and hasn’t had any written reports. Apparently they have stopped doing them. Twice a year they get a basic list with a number from 1 to 5 for behaviour, homework etc and once a year a grade - ‘Mastering’, ‘Securing’ etc

The only organised contact with teachers is a zoom parents meeting once a year, 5 minutes with each teacher. Is this normal?

I appreciate that writing reports must add significantly to teachers’ workloads & I’m sympathetic about that. I’ve also noticed (including at private schools) that the comments sometimes seem heavily cut & pasted anyway.

But I think the personalised feedback can be incredibly useful, both now and for reflecting back on in the future, and think it’s a shame if this is no longer the standard…

AIBU?

yanbu but this is mumsnet where teachers have god like status and anything that takes up more of their precious time should be abolished. Teachers barely even mark work anymore.

Thanks for this @Octavia64

I do use the numbered reports to gauge things, and perhaps I'm just being too high in my expectations in wanting to ensure that they are learning all they should, especially given the interruptions from disruptive children my DC tell me about (discussed on a different thread)

Just as an example, onto of my DCs appears quite gifted in maths and physics and this is something they have said they want to pursue into higher and further education. They can tell me everything they have been learning (a bit harder with my youngest who has ASD as he is very academically bright but not so great at communicating the information back to us) but what they're learning doesn't seem to be at the same standard as my nephew was just a few years ago at a different school (who is now at Uni studying for a physics degree) so I do want to ensure that his cohort are being given the same opportunities, and because I know schools are under pressure, I'm more than prepared to do my bit at home, bit don't want to repeat nor speed ahead of where they are.

It's also alarming that because my youngest is quiet he is just becoming invisible to many teachers, at a parents evening I did manage to get appointments for last year, 4 teachers clearly didn't even know who he was and just said he was quiet and they never had any trouble from him, couldn't tell me anything about his work (and he was top of class in 2 of those subjects)

So I can understand teachers feeling emotive over parents asking for certain things or even saying it's a just a job to them (a hard job) but when there's so many children they have to teach, it is in the grand scheme of things, especially when some can't even place some childrens faces after a year but can read their progress against their names on a piece of paper, but there is emotion attached for parents to their individual child and just a little more information could help parents to better support their kids. I don't blame the teachers for this, like I said before it's the structures and pressure put in place from those higher.

@Everythinggreen

You say that you are worried that your children aren't being taught at the same depth as other teens you know at other schools.

(We are very off topic from written reports here, sorry to other people)

Schools do very much move at different speeds and have different curriculums.

Prior to the national curriculum schools had very wide freedom to teach whatever they wanted although there were of course exams at the end.

Now we are kind of back there as academies do not have to follow the national curriculum although many do. So a school with a generally higher attaining intake will be teaching harder material at an earlier time than a school with a generally lower attaining intake

You won't get that information from written reports though.

Of course both schools have students sitting GCSEs at the end, but the school with higher attaining students may well go into more depth as ks3 as they feel they have the time and are not just desperately trying to get lower attainers up to gcse standard.

A school with higher attaining students is also more likely to offer triple science, further maths, more languages etc at gcse. Schools that have more lower attainers develop btecs, and qualifications they are more likely to succeed at.

Can you provide specific examples?

I mark accordingly to my school policy but then again I’m a qualified teacher … maybe if your child is being taught by cover supervisors I guess the feedback will be non existent. But vote Tory, receive shite.

You've really confirmed my suspicions to be honest and it does worry me.
My DCs and a lot of their peers were high achieving in KS2 but they did come from an excellent and high achieving primary school but I appreciate secondary is a mix.

The secondary schools around here are all academies and some have specialist areas within them (I.e. football academy, rugby academy) some have better SEN facilities etc and there's lots to weigh up and thinking back to how academic achievement was portrayed when I was asking questions, I do wonder if it was simply gauged within the school standards itself rather than as a wider comparison (my fault in hindsight for not clarifying)

Your comments have been really helpful and definitely something I'm going to look into more. Thank you.

Good for you. Here’s your pat on the back 👋

yanbu but this is mumsnet where teachers have god like status

Yep, people are always telling gods that they are whinging, incompetent, lazy, workshy, petty tyrants who like to humiliate people.

Where are these schools where there is barely any marking?

Maybe it's because I teach English, mainly to y10 upwards, but "barely even marking" is not on my radar.

@Everythinggreen If you go to this website and put in your school name (and the neighbouring schools) https://www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/ you can look at a breakdown of results split into low, medium and high prior-attaining pupils. (See below for example)

Go to the school, then secondary then scroll down to results by pupil characteristics, then prior attainment.

If you have a look around other schools you should get an idea of where your child's school stands.

Oh jog on.

Each Year 11 mock paper took me 1 hour to mark. Each student did 2 papers... I'll let you do the maths there to see the number of hours that took (on top of an 8-5 working day) - and I only have 20 in my class. That's ONE piece of marking for one of my 6 classes, just as an example. 👍😊

Are people really, genuinely out there thinking we are making this up?

Brilliant. Thanks so much.

😂😂And your basis for saying this is?!!!
When I tell my six year old I can’t attend her school assembly/ nativity/ liturgy due to endless deadlines and workload, I’ll be sure to find strength in your respect for the profession and all we do to support young people.

People. Make. Typos.
Even writers. Even…teachers…
I’m shocked people expect perfection.

How would that work? Many ‘non-pupil facing’ tasks are time critical or require pupils to be around. Marking assessments for example. Writing reports too, as the need to be based on pupil work and ideally have some pupil input. All admin tasks become pointless if divorced from day to day interactions with pupils. Frankly, most are a bit pointless anyway. Plus teachers are leaving in their tens of thousands. The only ‘perk’ left is the holidays - which most work through chunks of anyway.

To be blunt… because a large proportion of parents don’t care/read the reports. This is a huge workload for what, in reality, is a small return/impact.

A large number made parents eve apps and didn’t turn up. This was at Y10! GCSE!

Is it a state school?
How big is the school?

It must depend on your location, written reports are given in Scotland

Yes you are being unreasonable and clearly have no idea what schools have become like over the last 30 years if you think that teachers would have time to write that kind of detail. I have to write a report for 240 students this year. If I spend 10 minutes per student that is 40 hours of work. On top of my normal work load. I am already working nearly 60 hours a week. We don’t get given time to the write the reports. We don’t have TAs to support us with other tasks in the classroom to reduce our work load anymore. If you would like a bit more information about a particular subject, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from ringing the school and asking for a call back from that particular teacher.

There are approximately 300 pupils per year at DD's old school. It is unreasonable to expect teachers to write paragraphs about each one.

Where would they find the time?

I feel that teachers already do a difficult job and are getting a hard time on here from parents who seem to have little idea about how schools operate these days.

Not a teacher, but an ex school governor.

This!

this. Try writing 30 reports when you have zero time and are probably doing them at night when trying to put your own kids to bed

This is it. This is the comment that made me actually create a profile to reply.

I am a primary teacher, currently on maternity leave so I actually have time to respond to this as my 4 week old sleeps.

• Every single day I have a minimum of 120 books to mark (English, phonics, maths and at least one afternoon subject), these need to be marked for the next day to assess what children have learnt/ or learnt, adapt lessons for the next day, and so the children can see their work has been looked at. We must ensure there is a full written comment every few pieces of work - not for the children, who can’t read half of it, but for the parents when they come for a book look.
Every two weeks we have a “long write” to mark for English. These take double the time… plus the usual maths/phonics/PM books.

• I must provide one club per week, this can either be during dinnertime - in which I must give up my lunch hour (a legal requirement to have a lunch break, is it not?) or can be completed afterschool - massively eating into my marking and planning time. When do I now mark those 120 books? I need to pick my children up from their childcare by 5, club finishes at 4:15. The office staff leaves at 4pm so if any parents are late collecting their children (inevitable), I must ring around to find them, and continue to watch the child. Even less time to mark. I’ll have to lug the books home. Maybe I can find some semi-nutritious food for my children in the freezer… I certainly won’t have time to stand and cook. My son can read his book in the car whilst I drive, I can sign his reading record quickly. No time to play with them tonight!

• our lessons are adapted every day. I use my lessons I made the previous year as a very rough guideline, but change them to suit the current cohort. That is, of course, if I taught this year the previous year. I might have just been moved from year 6 to year 2. Rates of SEND are rising, I have to ensure this work will be suitable for the brightest, and the one who finds it the most challenging.

• parents evening every half term, one face to face and one “virtual”, which just means I have to use my own telephone to ring 30 parents, the school will tell the parents this is “flexible” to suit around the parents working needs… no concern about the fact my kids have swimming at 5 on a Tuesday, football on Thursday. I’ll have to ask my mum to take them… again. One parent asking for a phone call 6pm on Friday. The only time they can do. SLT will tell me I must communicate with everyone.

• report writing time, I must write a detailed report for every child. We use a daft computerised programme (for aesthetic reasons purely) which is incredibly user unfriendly, so I’ll have to write them on word then copy and paste them over. They need proof reading my someone before the head teacher proof reads them. Normally this would be a TA, mine is out sick. I can’t ask someone at home because of GDPR. I’ll have to read them repeatedly and hope for the best. Email response from head, “have these been proofread? Please ensure they are in future.”

this doesn’t include:
• assessments
• unnecessary duplication of results (this tracker, this online programme, got to have a paper copy!)
• responding to parents… ClassDojo anyone?
• planning school trips
• creating resources when necessary and editing those from the dreaded Twinkl site. Why reinvent the wheel?
• pastoral support
• dealing with challenging behaviours - I had a desk thrown at me whilst heavily pregnant
• interventions
• break and lunch covers because we can’t get support staff.

Workload is higher than it’s ever been, pay is shockingly low and in real terms, we’ve faced a significant pay cut with inflation. Teachers are leaving the profession in droves. Education is in dire straits and it’s not changing anytime soon. To say we do less than teachers in the past is offensive and unnecessary. Talk to someone who has taught over numerous decades and they will tell you: it’s only getting worse.

I’ll add - we do all of this whilst being paid for 32.5 hours a week. 8:40 to 3:40, not including the unpaid breaks.

I hope this answered your question sufficiently.

Perhaps the unsupportive parents who think that teachers have an easy time should retrain and become a teacher.

I am not a teacher but have friends who used to teach and have been a governor. I take my hat off and have the utmost respect for teachers.

Pointless comparing primary teaching a generation ago. Even leaving aside massive social and workplace changes, the curriculum is totally different! DD is doing stuff in English I never learnt at school at all, never mind in primary...

*yanbu but this is mumsnet where teachers have god like status

Yep, people are always telling gods that they are whinging, incompetent, lazy, workshy, petty tyrants who like to humiliate people.*

it can be simultaneously true that teachers have a ridiculous and unreasonable workload and a very difficult and professional job - and that there are a significant proportion of terrible teachers. As a teacher PP said, she has to do a ton of work supporting poor teachers because the shortage caused by the unreasonable demands and stress means they have to hire whoever they can and they are not always any good.

if you have a child at school (at least state school) you will have encountered some cruel, uncaring or just stupid/I’ll-informed teachers, it’s a fact. My DC have various SEN, and one has a massive fear of school, but they’ve always been well-behaved at school and I’ve never been called in because they were in trouble - they have no reason to lie to me about what teachers are like and they tell me about the great and lovely teachers too. There are teachers who deliberately humiliate, make sexist or inappropriate remarks, single kids out for bullying, or don’t know their subject/s - it’s a fact, we all remember them from school and they’re still around.

I have huge respect and gratitude for good teachers and I feel for all teachers re the workload, the abuse they get and the ridiculous admin demands. But it does really annoy me when I or someone else posts about a problem with a bad teacher and some teachers come on and say that’s just not possible, all teachers have their students best interests at heart and no one would ever tear up a students work in front of the class or make a sexual joke to a 12-year-old girl. Well multiple witnesses and reputations known throughout the school, kids, parents and other staff say they do. When I (calmly, reasonably, not assuming my child was indisputably right) reported the sex-joke-making teacher, the school didn’t deny it. They just said “it’s just his sense of humour”. They really don’t want to deal with it because they can’t afford to lose teachers.