how to handle son's behaviour and learning at school

[pain1nthearse]

My son is currently in Year 5 (turning 10 in few weeks) and up to this year has always been well behaved in school (to my knowledge). Up until year 3 his learning and attitude to school were good - excellent at reading and comprehension and meeting expectations in all other subjects. However, from Year 3 onwards, I have been called in every year by that year's teacher at about a third of the way in to the school year, to discuss his learning. The teachers have felt that he starts to disengage, isn't able to start tasks on his own, lacks confidence/independence and struggles to complete some activities. So support has been given (each year) whereby he has usually been moved to nearer the teacher and the teacher checks in on him every lesson, gives him additional help etc. I've then checked in with them every few weeks and the response has usually been that he's gained confidence and is doing better. We did start additional maths tuition last year as that subject seemed to be the one he struggled with most - he still goes and it does seem to have helped his confidence in maths.

However, this year the teacher approached me about a month ago - same story but this time it is coupled with poor behaviour. Lots of talking in class, being disruptive (poking friends with pencil, climbing under the table, burped really loudly whilst teacher telling rest of class off). All low level but incredibly annoying for the teacher, those he is disrupting and also means he misses the input part of the lesson so of course doesn't know what to do later on. She has had to bring him back during lunch to finish work because he barely writes anything in lessons and he is scoring badly in end of maths unit tests (4/20 and 6/20 etc). I showed these end of unit tests to his maths tutor and she couldn't believe it. Said, I know he can do many more of these questions as he does them with us.

We came up with a plan to reward him at the end of the week for good behaviour and completing work in class (so just trying to get him to do what he should be doing!) Last week went well but this week not so well. She has had to move him every single day, sometimes more than once. Some days he has hardly produced anything, although unsurprisingly he did really well today - took part in discussions and completed his work (he knew I would be chatting to her at the end of the day). The teacher has said it's her problem in that she is clearly not engaging him with her teaching and that she knows he can do so much better than he is. She clearly wants to help.

I'm at a loss as to what to do. I'm worried he's falling further and further behind (I'm a TA in a Year 6 class so know what will be expected next academic year). He doesn't seem to care about the consequences for poor behaviour at school (the being moved). The disengagement shows he is trying to communicate something but I don't know what? I wonder if he has inattentive ADHD as his focus/concentration is poor but then when he's doing something he enjoys (art/drawing) he can focus. He seems immature for his age so I wonder is he just a bit of a late bloomer??

Should I give consequences at home by taking away things i know he does care about i.e. gaming time? Or is it enough just to not reward him because he hasn't achieved what he was supposed to? However, I think the poor behaviour can't just go on and it will without consequences he cares about.

Gosh - sorry this is long. AIBU to give consequences at home? Where do i go with this?? Thanks if you got this far!

My Dd14 has really struggled in school. We have finally got her assessed (thanks waiting lists) she has adhd and a sensory processing disorder. She literally can't sit still and hear what the teacher is saying so looks like she is fidgeting and being annoying. Actually if she is wriggling around or playing with something she hears every word. When she gets to the 'yellow' zone where she starts getting silly or anxious she needs proprioceptive input. Essentially heavy muscle work like hanging from a bar or bouncing on an exercise ball. It sounds crazy but it brings her back to herself and she can work again. I wish we had known about it years ago. It's worth looking into adhd so you can get things in place to help as early as possible

I'm a teacher. I would suggest he is not working hard in school because he can't for some reason, rather than he won't. No child wants to fail and fall behind, even if they aren't prepared to put the maximum effort in. The fact he can do better in maths with a tutor shows that there is something about school that does not enable him to succeed there in the same way.

You can't rule out ADHD by the fact he focuses on what he likes doing. ADHD makes it hard to stay engaged in something that is not of much interest, it is quite different if they are strongly motivated. It sounds like he is not paying attention, can't keep his mind on the lesson (much easier to do that with a one to one tutor) and he fidgets / messes around as a way of self stimulating. (I don't have ADHD but I'm the same when I'm bored or disengaged).

You could ask your GP or SENCo to refer for an ADHD assessment, though you'll likely have a long wait unless you go privately. Meanwhile I suggest reading up on it, in particular on strategies that help in class and see if school can put any in place for him.

Forget the rewards at home - they won't impact what happens in school if he really can't help himself. It's not uncommon btw for issues to become apparent around year 5 where they haven't been noticeable before.

You can decide

1. let school discipline him and accept that he may not care and will fall behind in learning.
2. reward good behaviour whilst also sanctioning poor behaviour. Yes take away the tech. He can play a game, draw, read and play sport. Depriving him of the tech will be a suitable consequence for not getting work done.

Personally I would act. If you don't, the behaviour will get more entrenched and I wouldn't want a child who plays the fool at secondary school.

@pain1nthearse Hi OP. An EHCNA is an educational, health and care plan needs assessment. People tend to say apply for an EHCP but that's technically not how it works, you actually apply for an EHCNA and if you're successful you are awarded an EHCP. Essentially, it's like a large application form where the family, school and any health care providers detail the needs of the child with supplementing evidence. This then usually goes to a panel of people at the local authority who decide whether to award an ECHP or decline the application.

I would say based on your information there would not be yet be sufficient evidence for an ECHNA so starting with this will just (honestly) waste the SENDCos time. If your DC isn't even on the SEN register then that's the first step.

In your case, if you genuinely suspect a learning need then arrange a meeting with the SENDCo and they can run you through the options for ADHD, Autism etc.

Read SEND Code of Practice to see the legal guidelines the SENDCo has to follow as well.

I'd agree.

First thing I'd do is really praise him for being open and honest with you.
Let him know that asking for help is absolutely the right way forward.
I would then ask for a meeting with the class teacher (and SENCo if possible) and tell them everything you've said here.
It sounds like he possibly has a processing issue.
Yes, an EP could help with assessing that, but most schools have X hours of EP support a year, and most schools have a priority list of dc that need to see the EP, so it might be a long wait. OTOH, nothing to be lost by starting that process and bringing him to the attention of the SENCo.
Good too to let the teacher know what he has said to you.

Hi OP, it was all new to me 5 years ago too. It's been a steep learning curve. You're doing the right thing by listening to your child, advocating for him and showing curiosity.

If you find you need to progress things then I have a support thread here:

EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2

Primary school SENCOs often have little training and certainly can't tell you definitively if your child needs assessing for ADHD or whatever. Their role is to try to meet the needs they see in the classroom and to support the teachers.

No offence to SENCOs. Ours have been helpful I now know more than they do... (I am a teacher too).

In the meantime, the book "Smart But Scattered" is quite a useful read, as is Ross W. Greene's The Explosive Child.

How is he with reading/visuals? Would printing out his task on paper rather than being spoken to him help? Or having the work broken down into smaller steps in a checklist?

For some kids it seems better to not do any work, rather than do it and prove they're "stupid". Same with being seen as naughty/disruptive rather than "stupid". So they need extra help ,support and adaptations to show them they can achieve and do the work.

However, from Year 3 onwards, I have been called in every year by that year's teacher at about a third of the way in to the school year, to discuss his learning. The teachers have felt that he starts to disengage, isn't able to start tasks on his own, lacks confidence/independence and struggles to complete some activities.

This, imo, is a sign that he may have some unmet needs. If your feeling is ADHD then you need to push for an assessment - have the school suggested getting an Ed Psych?

Year 3 is the classic time when some children with unmet needs start to burn out and/or act up.

Since you are a year 6 teacher, you will also know the pressure that children are under academically and year 5-6 really ramps up from what I remember.

It's really not fair to assume he's just being naughty. Behaviour is communication. I disagree with the poster who said just punish him - that would be a lazy way to deal with the situation.

So that the OP, who is also a teacher has to carry on teaching at home in her own time? Just no. This is something the school should be addressing.

This post resonates with me. One of my daughters has ADHD and was diagnosed at 6. And one of my other children who is now 20 has dyslexia. She only found out last year, having started university!

The dyslexia was a revelation because some of the things she had experienced all the way through school, you wouldn't necessarily associate with dyslexia. Such as not understanding what was being asked of her. Sitting for a long time, trying to start writing but not knowing how to start.

in terms of where to go from here, I would suggest finding a practitioner to assess your son if you want to go private. Start a thread in the SN section of MN and ask for recommendations. You can also go to the GP and ask for him to be put on the assessment pathway at the same time. Also look for Facebook groups for things like ADD and dyslexia, because you can often get a lot of advice there too.

An Ed Psych would be very useful. Some do have very long waiting lists but generally the ones who don’t take on legal work have better availability.

Thank you, this is really helpful. I have wondered about dyslexia as a friend mentioned her son being assessed and how they look at processing and working memory and not just reading/writing etc. I’m going to start a thread in the SEN board later as I really need help to navigate my way through this. I think the school will push back saying he’s fine but we’ll see.

@pain1nthearse
I’m going to come at this from a different angle.
What if it’s not your child that is ‘abnormal’ (obviously using that word just to make my point, not suggesting ND is not normal!).

What if the environment he is in (ie school) is abnormal and is expecting all children to fit a certain mould. As an ex primary teacher I know how much the system expects all square pegs to fit into round holes. We too often see the child as the ‘problem’ whilst letting the environment/systems and structures off the hook.
Im not saying you shouldn’t look into adhd as a possible ‘problem’ but I’m saying that we too often disregard the fact that school as it is today is dysfunctional for many children.

In my experience the type of behaviour that your son is displaying is a clear indication that he’s struggling with the ‘one size fits all’ style of education, with the rigid and fast-paced curriculum, with sitting at a desk all day when he probably needs to simple move his body and-or be learning in a more kinaesthetic way. Using his hands, making stuff, climbing trees, doing something that is many cramming for the SATs (that is the be all and end all for schools but meaningless for a child’s future).

Year 5 and 6 in particular are a step up from lower years. There is so much pressure to be ‘SATs ready’. It’s heartbreaking to see this from the inside. There is a lot of emphasis on the academics and very little else. Many children have had enough by this point in their primary careers. It’s too much. There is no room for creativity, for play, for fun! I left and took my children with me as it was just too rigid and joyless.

"poking friends with pencil, climbing under the table, burped really loudly whilst teacher telling rest of class off. All low level but incredibly annoying for the teacher, those he is disrupting and also means he misses the input part of the lesson so of course doesn't know what to do later on."

If he is ADHD he will find it hard to focus, be impulsive, and be about 2 years behind emotionally when compared to peers. This is why he is then displaying this disruptive behaviour. You say he's missing the input, but if he doesn't understand it, then this is way of 'saying' that. There are adjustments that can be made, whether he has a diagnosis or not, but it's not a fix-all. This will take time and effort to work out what helps, but he then needs help to recognise when he is about to disrupt to choose a fidget, or movement break, or whatever he needs rather than disrupt. So he gets his needs met that doesn't impact on others learning.

If there is a TA available, then they can help him with that. If there isn't, and sadly budgets mean this is sometimes the case nowadays, then the teacher can help but they also have the rest of the class to teach and support at the same time so he may not get what he needs at the exact time he needs it.

My friend's son's recently been diagnosed with dyslexia and I discovered the British Dyslexia Association have a list of specialist tutors on their website that you can search by postcode (if that's useful to anyone).

Have you met with the teacher alongside your child? Might be interesting to communicate in that way and hold them accountable for their choices. If he's disengaged at school then you need to work with the teacher to promote a positive attitude. If you're concerned about ADHD then go to the GP and ask for a referral. Your class teacher should be able to write a report to support.

It’s like it takes a while for him to trust them enough to ask for help and engage with them. He ended up loving his teacher last year but she was really nurturing and knew him well.

As part of your conversation with his teacher, perhaps bring this up. The Yr4 teacher might well be able to share what strategies she tried that turned it around for him last year.
Potentially at handover in July, your ds was no longer on the Yr4 teacher's radar, because she had found what worked for him , and she just forgot the difficulties he had earlier in the year in her class - so she just mentioned the children who were still struggling to the Yr5 teacher.

You can do many many things. Educational psychologist, keep the private tutor, talk to the SENCO, reward good behaviour ...

I’d say that this is fairly typical. In any one primary school class there will be a small group of children who push the boundaries just a smidge more, or who are that bit more prone to being silly. At the extreme end are one or two boys who get carried away and as peer pressure ramps up, they will have some followers, too. Not all children are intinsically motivated. This is normal. Everyone is different.

What’s not normal is when a school team doesn’t recognise this, and then over the years the exuberance, silliness starts to affect everyone just that little bit more as their bodies become bigger and the habits become entrenched. I also wonder about the classroom setup and general noise levels. For many children, the norm of constant movement, chatter, scraping and general noise makes it impossible to concentrate. Teachers might like the ‘buzz’ but children with autistism find it utterly unbearable.

This is why school habits, rules, routines and CLEAR expectations are so important. They set all children up for success, including more vulnerable children and those with SEND. It means that instead of nagging, or vague missives (‘kind hands’), children get genuine praise. Senior leaders in the school need to be a visible presence, holding him to account. ‘Right, show me your book’ sort of thing.

The alternative of course is routine tactical ignoring, lowering expectations, making lessons more practical, and lots of sympathetic conversations. There is a place for this, but if it is the dominant position, it won’t set all children up for success. It’s nice at the time and children (and sometimes parents) tend to prefer this, but remember they’re going to go secondary school and, for boys, testosterone will come into the mix, too. Testosterone means risk taking and aggression.

I like the suggestion of tutoring. What this’ll do is give him a boost and he’ll start to get kudos and status for being good at a particular skill. This is really important for boys. How’s his handwriting?