Page 6 | To think that those who go abroad for cheap cosmetic surgery should insure themselves...

jemenfous37 · 2023-11-30T06:50:45+00:00

...so that when it all goes wrong, which it inevitably does, the NHS isn't left with the repair bill. Eveyone moans that the NHS is underfunded, many happily blame migrants (legal or otherwise) or govt underfunding etc. Yet they then expect it to clear up the mess when their tummy tuck/eyelash extension go wrong. Why should the public fund their vanity project - the surgery they thought they'd get on the cheap in a sunny country? We cannot afford to provide many procedures/drugs that are actually necessary, but hey, why not spend what little we have hoovering up the consequences of vanity and what appears to be terminal stubborness (because it isn't as if people don't know the potential risks, the media has been covering such stories for years)?

harerunner · 01/12/2023 15:26

@bellac11

Why are you so hung up on it being abroad? I might need to get my gall bladder removed, the NHS is notoriously slow at getting these out, preferring to wait until people have been unable to work, have numerous A+E visits and risk sepsis if stones get stuck. So if I need it, I may go private, I havent decided yet. I might go abroad or I might go in this country

I'm not... whether it's abroad or not shouldn't matter. If the NHS can't cope, then it should provide accreditation to high quality private medical providers for whom insurance isn't required.

harerunner · 01/12/2023 15:32

But if they turn up at A&E with sepsis as an outcome of that surgery, then A&E rightly treat it.

Yes, but if it's determined that the cause of the sepsis is demonstrably the dodgy surgery, they should get the bill. If it's not demonstrably clear - and I accept these things often aren't - then the NHS foots the bill as usual. It would need a pretty high bar for the NHS to prove this... but there would be some cases when the cause of the medical issue was very clear, and where there would sufficient evidence that the proximate cause was due to "dodgy surgery" to stand up in a court of law.

CandyLeBonBon · 01/12/2023 15:33

harerunner · 01/12/2023 15:23

@CandyLeBonBon

Where do you draw the line though? As many people have said on here - other forms of personal choice also impact the nhs: having children, sports injuries, smoking, drinking, obesity, drug addiction.
Your taxes go your pay for all the people who use up nhs resources as a result of their personal choices.Where do you draw the line?

I'd draw the line where there the action is a result of a clear deliberate choice where the issue or activity can be cleared defined... Choosing to go abroad for surgery meets that criteria. Being obese (how fat? Are their psychological or medical causes) or smoking (how many a day? When did you give up? etc) doesn't.

Public policy necessarily involves drawing lines all the time. It's imperfect and sometimes crude, but necessary. To argue for inaction because it means a judgment has to be made naively assumes life can be simplistically defined by right and wrong / black and white, and we live in a utopia where everything is possible and money is limitless.

Well lung cancer in a smoker and cirrhosis in a heavy drinker will fall into those categories.

TBH I'd be amazed if rectifying surgical complications is anywhere near as expensive as managing the long term issues from both of the above tbh.

SecondUsername4me · 01/12/2023 16:36

harerunner · 01/12/2023 15:32

But if they turn up at A&E with sepsis as an outcome of that surgery, then A&E rightly treat it.

Yes, but if it's determined that the cause of the sepsis is demonstrably the dodgy surgery, they should get the bill. If it's not demonstrably clear - and I accept these things often aren't - then the NHS foots the bill as usual. It would need a pretty high bar for the NHS to prove this... but there would be some cases when the cause of the medical issue was very clear, and where there would sufficient evidence that the proximate cause was due to "dodgy surgery" to stand up in a court of law.

Of course they shouldn't.

Unless you would also like to re-bill:-
Smokers who get any sort of related illness
Over eaters who get any sort of related illness
Anyone who does a hobby which involves risk and gets any sort of related illness
Anyone who chooses to have a baby - after all, they are choosing something which burdens the NHS and is entirely optional
Anyone who gets into a car, causes an accident and is harmed
Anyone who chooses to do DIY and falls off their ladder
Anyone who goes and gets a piercing or tattoo and gets any sort of related illness
Anyone who goes for camping or qalks through the woods and gets a tic/Lymes.

And on and on it goes.

Or, the NHS just does what it needs to do and tries to fix broken people who present at its door at no cost to the patient.

harerunner · 01/12/2023 16:44

@CandyLeBonBon

Well lung cancer in a smoker and cirrhosis in a heavy drinker will fall into those categories. TBH I'd be amazed if rectifying surgical complications is anywhere near as expensive as managing the long term issues from both of the above tbh.

Tax on cigarettes and drink goes a significant way to funding those though, so in effect it is already paid for (in part at least). There's also the mental health factors around drinking and smoking which means it's not a simple "choice".

Destiny123 · 01/12/2023 16:54

MrsHedgewarbler · 30/11/2023 08:10

@Destiny123 in terms of back billing at least UK private post op complications, do you think that would be fairly straightforward from an administrative perspective? I’m thinking in the UK they would have professional indemnity insurance which they could apply.

I don’t think anyone should be turned away or discouraged from getting the medical help they need from the NHS. But it doesn’t seem quite right the NHS funding and picking up the pieces from profit making private health companies and helping them retain such profits without any consequences.

Interesting topic.

Currently no, the nhs is a bureaucratic nightmare and I'm sure we probably dont get the vast majority of money back from tourists using the nhs

in the future definitely. We've just got a new IT system which requires so many extra clicks (it's American) that you can tell are purely to bill the individual more for xyz, so really wouldn't surprise me if nhs becomes more and more private like

Our indemnity is for mistakes or malpractice rather than operations that have just unfortunately had recognised complications, that won't get compensated for provided was correctly consented in the first place

bellac11 · 01/12/2023 17:19

Its often not dodgy surgery anyway, people get infections, or people get hernias after gastric surgery, its sometimes just the way of it

CandyLeBonBon · 01/12/2023 18:07

harerunner · 01/12/2023 16:44

@CandyLeBonBon

Well lung cancer in a smoker and cirrhosis in a heavy drinker will fall into those categories. TBH I'd be amazed if rectifying surgical complications is anywhere near as expensive as managing the long term issues from both of the above tbh.

Tax on cigarettes and drink goes a significant way to funding those though, so in effect it is already paid for (in part at least). There's also the mental health factors around drinking and smoking which means it's not a simple "choice".

As does our national insurance, in part. And if someone pays national insurance (or has the equivalent credits) in the U.K., they are entitled to healthcare on the NHS.

So if I went abroad for say, a facelift, paid for by my own funds, and ended up with an infection, do you think, as a lifelong taxpayer, in all their forms (vat/vehicle excise duty/ni/alcohol/tobacco duty etc) I'm less eligible for urgent care even though my taxes have also paid into the services?

SecondUsername4me · 01/12/2023 18:12

There's also the mental health factors around drinking and smoking which means it's not a simple "choice"

A significant proportion of the abroad surgery people likely have MH issues too.

bellac11 · 01/12/2023 18:37

Or they might not have any MH issues, but they need treatment for obesity which will improve their health and make them less of a risk for NHS services (diabetes, joint issues etc)

daisypond · 01/12/2023 19:28

The largest type of plastic and cosmetic surgery in the UK is provided in the UK on the NHS, I believe.

harerunner · 01/12/2023 20:55

It seems a lot of posters here think the state should be their nanny, and take all responsibility and clean up their shit.

CandyLeBonBon · 01/12/2023 21:06

harerunner · 01/12/2023 20:55

It seems a lot of posters here think the state should be their nanny, and take all responsibility and clean up their shit.

What do you mean 'clean up their shit' exactly?

bellac11 · 01/12/2023 21:11

Its true. I fell off my bike earlier this year and hurt my knee.

I had to go to A+E for them to clear up my shit and then have physio to clear up my shit. Its still bad (only got a little bit of shit cleared as physio sessions are only 6 at a time), so now I need to go back and get more shit cleared up

Who do I sue?

Or do I have to pay the price of cycling myself?

CandyLeBonBon · 01/12/2023 21:23

bellac11 · 01/12/2023 21:11

Its true. I fell off my bike earlier this year and hurt my knee.

I had to go to A+E for them to clear up my shit and then have physio to clear up my shit. Its still bad (only got a little bit of shit cleared as physio sessions are only 6 at a time), so now I need to go back and get more shit cleared up

Who do I sue?

Or do I have to pay the price of cycling myself?

Sue the council. Probably a pot hole. I think they should be made to pay for your hospital treatment! 😂

bellac11 · 01/12/2023 21:26

CandyLeBonBon · 01/12/2023 21:23

Sue the council. Probably a pot hole. I think they should be made to pay for your hospital treatment! 😂

Show quote history

Its worse than that, it was a seaside cycle path, I think the wheel slipped on some wet chalk.

I will sue the sea.

harerunner · 01/12/2023 22:47

@CandyLeBonBon

What do you mean 'clean up their shit' exactly?

Take zero responsibility for their actions, and then expect "the state" to sort everything out for them when it goes wrong...

Nannyfannybanny · 02/12/2023 07:55

Nursing over 40 years here,no retired. Procedures, surgery does have risks, even minor. A relative had a hysterectomy 2 years ago, which resulted in a cystocele the following year. For various reasons (some patients weight) it couldn't be performed vaginally as is the norm. It was done abdominally, since then 2 more major abdominal surgeries have had to be performed. She smoked throughout.... inspite of risks being said,and continues to do so now. I am surprised no one has mentioned the "top surgery" being performed by the NHS,in this country,by teens who perceive they are in the wrong body!