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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Disgusting hospital

495 replies

Furyfurious · 14/10/2023 23:11

I was discharged from hospital this week following surgery and a 5 night stay at an NHS hospital. I am absolutely traumatised. What I have seen and been exposed to was totally shocking. I will definitely be looking for a Private health care policy. The Nurses attitudes, patients attitudes poor (not all ) but a shambles. The smell of the ward, the food etc sorry but there needs to be resolution

OP posts:
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17
BluebellsForest · 15/10/2023 16:04

Not sure if that tagged you, @Andanotherone01 ⬆️

RoseBucket · 15/10/2023 16:08

I recently worked on a ward where an elderly lady had early onset dementia, she kept crying and was getting distressed, when I asked the nurses what was wrong they took the piss out of her (not to her face but still it was awful) she thought her husband had died and kept being told he was alive and picking her up, in her confusion she kept forgetting and reliving it.

I sat with her and wrote a little note saying her husband was coming to collect her and drew a big heart around it.

She hugged that note so tight, every time she was sad she looked at the note in her hand and was ok. The nurses told me I was ridiculous.

Her husband picked her up and didn’t know what the note was, I explained. He went off to the shop and bought me a box of chocolates. They both hugged me when I left, the nurses ate the chocolates.

PrincessHoneysuckle · 15/10/2023 16:10

RoseBucket · 15/10/2023 16:08

I recently worked on a ward where an elderly lady had early onset dementia, she kept crying and was getting distressed, when I asked the nurses what was wrong they took the piss out of her (not to her face but still it was awful) she thought her husband had died and kept being told he was alive and picking her up, in her confusion she kept forgetting and reliving it.

I sat with her and wrote a little note saying her husband was coming to collect her and drew a big heart around it.

She hugged that note so tight, every time she was sad she looked at the note in her hand and was ok. The nurses told me I was ridiculous.

Her husband picked her up and didn’t know what the note was, I explained. He went off to the shop and bought me a box of chocolates. They both hugged me when I left, the nurses ate the chocolates.

That poor lady.It was really kind of you to do that.

Hotsausage2 · 15/10/2023 16:13

Just to clear up a couple of things. Nursing staff do have to clean anything which is bodily fluids as the company employed to do the domestic work will not. As Senior sister I have cleaned many a commode and blood spill.
Staff are not angels, however, the majority of nurses I have worked with are hard working, caring professionals.
There was earlier a comment about nurses refusing to do menial tasks- that gets taken care of straight away if I catch wind of it, and yes it does happen occasionally with some students.
One things that I will bring up which I feel is relevant- the huge amount of physical and verbal assaults on staff are at unprecedented levels. And it is just not taken seriously enough. The culture towards staff is abominable, added on the relentless number of patients who need ECO’s, and so taking away from the staffing levels of the ward.
Unfortunately, until this country sorts out its social care aspect, thus allowing patient flow back out to the community then the pressure will only increase.
What needs to happen is huge investment in that and then you may see an improvement in the NHS.
Frankly, the pay for what nurses do is just rubbish. If nurses have to work an extra 2 shifts a week just to financially survive then they are going to get burnt out, and that is what is happening.
lastly and cheekily- I don’t see the issue with nurses talking (quietly) about their social lives. They are at work for over half the week at least and I am sure that most jobs allow people to talk about things other than work?

Katypp · 15/10/2023 16:15

I have posted many times about the experience I had a couple of years ago with my then 84-year-old dad. He had been told to go to A&E for a routine blood transfusion.
I questioned this but my parents were adamant that was what the GP had said when we arrived he was on a list.
When we got there we were questioned by a nurse at every door about Covid symptoms. No idea why there was a nurse on every door as the doors only led to A&E so the situation at the first door was the same as the situation on the last. We went through the same questions three times.
Once inside, my dad had to get out of the hospital wheelchair because Covid and stand in a queue for 20 minutes to get into the waiting room. I have no idea why a queue of people who were going into the same room was more Covid secure but never mind.
My dad was very weak and very distressed at having to stand for so long. There were no chairs and no-one could leave their covid questions post to get one. I was not allowed to look for one because of Covid.
When we acually got into a&e, the treatment was disgusting. I was told I couldn't stay so had to leave my dad alone, very confused and distressed. When I asked when to collect him I was met with a breezy No Idea. I asked if they could calk me when he was ready - and this really angered me- I was told no, because the receptionists would be too busy.
To cut a long story short, my mum didn't find out he could be collected until 10.30pm, after phoning every 30 minutes and no-one answering. So that was 12 hours after he arrived and he was left for EIGHT HOURS in a&e and no-one could be arsed to call me to get him collected. It was an absolute disgrace I was incandescent at the receptionist who seemingly could say she would be too busy to do something so fundamental.
I have posted this story many times and the responses usually boil down to all NHS staff are underpaid angels and criticise at your peril.
I can't imagine leaving a poorly 84-year old who had finished his treatment alone without trying to get him back home. They had my.number and it would take a 5 min phone call but EVERYONE was too busy to do that. Disgraceful, inhumane treatment that would be acceptable nowhere else but the NHS, where the staff are seemingly untouchable

BluebellsForest · 15/10/2023 16:21

hollylou · 15/10/2023 14:57

@BluebellsForest obviously I can't vouch for every nurse in every setting but fundamentally yes I do think nurses are kind, there are obvious exceptions such a Lucy Letby etc but I can't belive many people would undertake three years of uni and the debts now associated with training to go into a fairly poorly paid job often working 14 hour shift and missing out on weekends, nights, etc if they didn't care. Its the system that breaks you, working daily with low level trauma, stress and seeing and hearing things that the average people will never encounter breaks some people down. Im sorry you had the experience you did and I can't excuse anybodys behaviour but I do believe staff really don't receive the support they should. Clearly this should never be reflected in patient care and the system needs to change.

I can absolutely believe that the NHS system destroys some good nurses, but this isn't the explanation for all of the now multiple accounts of cruelty and indifference on this thread.

It's not just a few bad apples, but it is rarely addressed adequately. Here's a recent example where a whistleblower was listened to. Many whistleblowers have instead found their careers destroyed.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/nurse-stroke-unit-patients-hospital-b2424724.html

Good nurses are amazing, and I can see how the 'angel' description has come about. But it is sheer complacency to deny that a significant number of people in nursing are uncaring and inadequate to the job.

What has been described here is just the tip of the iceberg. I always think of what happens when there are no visitors to witness, and to people who are entirely unable to complain or describe their treatment on Mumsnet.

Stoic123 · 15/10/2023 16:22

Antst · 15/10/2023 15:49

It has been restructured again and again. My aunt, who did a lot of good in her NHS role, just left because there is about to be yet another restructure. She left when she (and hundreds of people she worked with) was told to reapply for her job. It's a waste of time and vast amounts of money.

The problem has been identified for years. Senior NHS staff have told us what it is again and again. Reports have been published by independent bodies. It is austerity, removal of VAST amounts of money from the system. The response has been to restructure in order to make overwhelmed employees do more with less.

I worked in Europe for years (three different countries) until Brexit voters upended my life. I never once had problem accessing healthcare. Western European countries mostly have public-private partnerships for providing public services. The companies are very strictly regulated. The reason things work is that they are stable. Our problem is constant restructuring, funding decreases, and chaos. While there's restructuring going on, no one is focusing on providing care.

You are right - redesign is used as a cost cutting exercise and that is inappropriate here. I fundamentally disagree with the poster I was responding to in terms of funding adequacy. I do agree that the NHS, as it currently stands, isn't fit to support our current population. Should have made that clearer in my post.

I do think, longer term, the operating model does need to be redesigned - but on the presumption of more, not less, investment. I am happy to pay additional taxes for this.

Cowlover89 · 15/10/2023 16:25

Not all hospitals are the same

Emmalin · 15/10/2023 16:28

@RoseBucket that was the right thing to do and it will have made a big difference to that patient.

I wish I could remember the face/name of the patient who assisted me during my nightmare hospital stay. I asked for a container to be sick into and when it didn't come I fetched one myself and the nurse ticked me off before apologising to the woman next to me for the "noise" I was making being sick. I had a torsion ovary. This wonderful lady told the nurse that she was bothered but it was about how much pain I was in and that I'd had to fetch my own sick container. That got me a good pain shot and she comforted me until it kicked in. I dread to think what would have happened if she hadn't spoken up as I was being ignored while in agony.

LeakyPipes · 15/10/2023 16:29

tttigress · 15/10/2023 07:00

I agree it is a culture problem, not a money problem. Pretending every who works for the NHS is an "Angel" that never makes a mistake needs to stop.

This.

CoffeeWithCheese · 15/10/2023 16:29

Wasacarer · 15/10/2023 14:08

I used to work as a carer for adults with learning difficulties, some non-verbal. If a client had to go into hospital we went with them and took our own gloves, anti-bac wipes, hand wipes, disinfectant spray. Our manager insisted we wipe down the bed frame, mattress (strip and remake the bed), the bedside cabinet ( inside and out) and the floor around the bed if necessary on arrival and several times daily ( not the mattress) On return home we washed the clients clothes twice, the first wash with half a bottle of Dettol added. Any overnight bag they’d used was left outside and sprayed with disinfectant. This was in the days of MRSA and the manager was paranoid one of the clients would catch it. Some of the hospitals were ok but one was so disgusting ( large bathroom with bedpans containing excrement piled up on the floor) I couldn’t let the client use it. Staff generally were never great with people with LD, not even basic Makaton signing and often said they didn’t know how to look after “patients like that” 🙄
This was in the days of Blair’s government.

Yep this shouldn't be happening - and I know locally we now have SALTs IN the hospital purely with the remit to support staff in communicating with patients with LDs. Not perfect, and requires staff to know the team that can do this are actually available, and for LD to be accurately recorded on systems (which it isn't always).

I've had both sides of it - I've had a shit time as an NHS in-patient, and my kid with SEN was hounded out of a dance class by a dance mum/cancer nurse angel who spoke about patients in the most fucking appalling way I've ever heard... and now I work in the NHS - and I'm incredibly proud that I do so, but by heck it's got fucking problems and they're not just a lack of cash.

I think part of the problem can be that culture perpetuates itself - so even in an outstanding hospital, you can get wards where the rot's set in and where new staff get trained by old staff into ways of cutting corners, where the way they talk about patients gets passed on (often there's a move to forgetting to see them as people and seeing them as "the broken arm in bed 2" or "that one in bed 4 that's complained three times") and "bad" behaviour (such as making a racket at night) becomes the norm. Once it's become that embedded - it's a massive massive task to shift the culture back to one that's actually appropriate.

IT is a fucking mess. We don't even run on the same patient database in my trust as the GPs, ambulance service and acute hospitals in our local area... means I spend fucking hours on hold for GP surgeries for information that I could have got in a few clicks if we all actually had systems that spoke to each other. Even ON the same system it can be configured completely differently for different areas - I remember as a student doing a placement and the IT setup was totally different for one half of the same county to another. You don't get trained well enough in how to use stuff - so you spend hours having to ask or figure out how to fix a problem, and the actual physically technology is usually fucked - our office printer's been stuck on Korean for months in one base I work in.

The buildings are falling apart, staffing's been cut massively - we're now on a recruitment block where anyone who leaves has to have replacements justified by a massive process designed to cut things down more and more... and that's when we can find people to recruit - we've had the same post out to advert about 5 times now with no acceptable takers. We have huge disciplines within our area where we now have NO coverage - so people are referring to the "next best" service - so nursing are getting physio referrals etc - which does nothing for patient care, and also burns the remaining staff out even faster - and then they quit and can't be replaced so the whole shit show snowballs.

And then burnt out, demoralised staff, who often only get through the shift because they love the colleagues they work with - they're the ones you get arsing about making a racket laughing around the nurses station but forgetting to see the patients as the real people who should be the priority there... and then the culture starts to go to shit. I'm not perfect - but I try to keep in my mind that everyone I see, however challenging (and I work with some very challenging clients), is someone's child - it kind of keeps the perspective in check for me.

The clanging loud bins I think are beyond fucking help.

ItMustBeBedtimeSurely · 15/10/2023 16:33

I am a nurse. I can tell you that no, nurses are not angels, and nor should they need to be. They are human beings who are trying to do a job in conditions which get harder every year. Compassion fatigue and burnout are real. I know it’s hard to accept that, but it’s true.

I understand it is easy to blame nurses, and hard to comprehend how the behaviour listed on this thread can happen, but as long as we continue to blame individuals and not the failing system, nothing will change. In fact, it will get worse, as nurses are forced to cover themselves from accusations before they even think about their patients.

I will say, it’s pretty much impossible to do a good job as a ward nurse or an A&E nurse these days.

Hotsausage2 · 15/10/2023 16:36

FormerlyPathologicallyHappy · 15/10/2023 16:25

I’m just going to leave this here for people who think nurses are underpaid.

Nursing starts on band 5 as it’s a degree subject now, which it wasn’t for a long time.

https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/working-health/working-nhs/nhs-pay-and-benefits/agenda-change-pay-rates

I’m not quite sure what your point is?
For the work they do they are underpaid.
I am top Band 7, I line manage currently 75 people from B2 to B6. I never leave work on time, work through every lunch break, work clinically, will stay god knows how late if a patient needs it. I have also been assaulted physically twice in the last year. I think my pay for what I do is pretty poor actually.
For the Band 5’s and below it is rubbish. Do you actually know what most ward nurses actually do for you to infer they are paid well?

Antst · 15/10/2023 16:37

Stoic123 · 15/10/2023 16:22

You are right - redesign is used as a cost cutting exercise and that is inappropriate here. I fundamentally disagree with the poster I was responding to in terms of funding adequacy. I do agree that the NHS, as it currently stands, isn't fit to support our current population. Should have made that clearer in my post.

I do think, longer term, the operating model does need to be redesigned - but on the presumption of more, not less, investment. I am happy to pay additional taxes for this.

Edited

Yes, I think we agree. I think the major problem is short-termism.

The NHS has a huge advantage over most other healthcare systems, in that it is a single system. There's no reason to pay third-party companies a fortune for providing supplies and services. Or agency workers a fortune because we're "saving" money by not training enough workers.

We know exactly how many workers are needed and what supplies are needed. We should be making plans based on data instead o spending a fortune to plug holes.

Zebedee55 · 15/10/2023 16:39

hollylou · 15/10/2023 14:57

@BluebellsForest obviously I can't vouch for every nurse in every setting but fundamentally yes I do think nurses are kind, there are obvious exceptions such a Lucy Letby etc but I can't belive many people would undertake three years of uni and the debts now associated with training to go into a fairly poorly paid job often working 14 hour shift and missing out on weekends, nights, etc if they didn't care. Its the system that breaks you, working daily with low level trauma, stress and seeing and hearing things that the average people will never encounter breaks some people down. Im sorry you had the experience you did and I can't excuse anybodys behaviour but I do believe staff really don't receive the support they should. Clearly this should never be reflected in patient care and the system needs to change.

How much support does a nurse need to be kind? How much does a doctor need?

I've worked in hugely stressful jobs, such as Child Protection, with abuse, and I've never been less than kind.

Sorry - either do the job properly or leave. Everyone has that option.🙁

Nepmarthiturn · 15/10/2023 16:41

I agree with @Zebedee55. Many social workers are equally as horrific as medical staff. If you choose to continue in a role them you are representing that organisation and condoning their policies. I don't know how many of them sleep at night. Nobody who has the propensity to be callous should be working with vulnerable people.

hollylou · 15/10/2023 16:46

@Zebedee55 and that's why people are leaving in their droves, I left the ward environment as I felt I couldn't adequately care for my patients in the situations we were put in, the guilt I felt was immense both for the patients I left behind and my fell colleagues. Good nurses are leaving and I genuinely think before long there simply be enough left to safely staff many places. People are burnt out and traumatised, again I'm not excusing poor or unkind care but there is more to it than just telling staff to leave.

Mumaway · 15/10/2023 16:47

I'm fairly confident that wheeling any patient out for a vape is in nobody's best interests. Helping someone to maintain a seriously unhealthy habit which adds to the burden on the NHS, and taking a healthcare professional away from all the other patients. Anyone thinking this is good care should be ashamed of themselves.

Katypp · 15/10/2023 16:49

I third what @Zebedee55 said. We are conditioned to excuse behavoir that would be utterly unacceptable anywhere else because all NHS staff are underpaid angels. Sorry but none care underpaid and some are not angels.

Zebedee55 · 15/10/2023 16:52

hollylou · 15/10/2023 16:46

@Zebedee55 and that's why people are leaving in their droves, I left the ward environment as I felt I couldn't adequately care for my patients in the situations we were put in, the guilt I felt was immense both for the patients I left behind and my fell colleagues. Good nurses are leaving and I genuinely think before long there simply be enough left to safely staff many places. People are burnt out and traumatised, again I'm not excusing poor or unkind care but there is more to it than just telling staff to leave.

I understand, fully, that there is a problem with how money is spent. The NHS is an inefficient monolith and has been for years.

I understand that good nurses, (and there are many) feel demoralised by the system - and I would imagine they are tired of having to prop up lazy/uncaring/inefficient staff.

But, kindness and consideration, even verbal, costs little. Leaving people screaming in pain, neglected, and doing nothing, will never be a good look for any hospital.

Hospitals should never be a place where people fear to go, and are panic stricken in case they haven't got relatives to fight their corner.🙁

VisaWoes · 15/10/2023 16:53

Mumaway · 15/10/2023 16:47

I'm fairly confident that wheeling any patient out for a vape is in nobody's best interests. Helping someone to maintain a seriously unhealthy habit which adds to the burden on the NHS, and taking a healthcare professional away from all the other patients. Anyone thinking this is good care should be ashamed of themselves.

Holistic patient centred care innit? 🤷🏻‍♀️😁👍🏻

ive never wheeled anyone out for a fag or a vape. I have seen someone’s mum manhandle her adult dd who couldn’t walk /still under a spinal into a wheelchair for a cigarette 40 mins post elective section though!

Antst · 15/10/2023 16:55

Zebedee55 · 15/10/2023 16:39

How much support does a nurse need to be kind? How much does a doctor need?

I've worked in hugely stressful jobs, such as Child Protection, with abuse, and I've never been less than kind.

Sorry - either do the job properly or leave. Everyone has that option.🙁

It's so frustrating to read comments like yours. I see them at various newspapers too. Voters simply will not take responsibility for a completely preventable situation that they chose. This is austerity.

It is not possible to squeeze blood out of a stone. Likewise, it is not possible to squeeze endless work out of staff who don't have enough hours in the day to do what they need to. Staff end up leaving and kids who would make caring, excellent staff members won't go near NHS jobs.

You may have worked in child protection and I respect anyone who does that kind of work. But it is simply not at the same level as what nurses and doctors have to deal with, where every decision and every hour of every day brings situations that might severely injure or kill people.

Zebedee55 · 15/10/2023 16:56

Katypp · 15/10/2023 16:49

I third what @Zebedee55 said. We are conditioned to excuse behavoir that would be utterly unacceptable anywhere else because all NHS staff are underpaid angels. Sorry but none care underpaid and some are not angels.

The "all angels are nurses" thing has always been over-egged. Many aren't.

But, I think we were all conditioned to applaud and congratulate them through Covid, and much (but not all) was deserved. Many staff never went near a Covid ward.

Yet, we are all expected to excuse anything that goes on.

Shop workers were constantly exposed to the virus, without the protection....but I still expect Tesco etc to provide a decent service.😗

Zebedee55 · 15/10/2023 16:58

Antst · 15/10/2023 16:55

It's so frustrating to read comments like yours. I see them at various newspapers too. Voters simply will not take responsibility for a completely preventable situation that they chose. This is austerity.

It is not possible to squeeze blood out of a stone. Likewise, it is not possible to squeeze endless work out of staff who don't have enough hours in the day to do what they need to. Staff end up leaving and kids who would make caring, excellent staff members won't go near NHS jobs.

You may have worked in child protection and I respect anyone who does that kind of work. But it is simply not at the same level as what nurses and doctors have to deal with, where every decision and every hour of every day brings situations that might severely injure or kill people.

How much money does it take to be kind? What would the budget need to be?