to ask if I can afford to live in London long-term?

[Coastalwalks]

Hi all,

First time poster! I start with all the caveats about how I know I am relatively fortunate and have nothing to complain about, and hope that all advice given will reflect this.... hard hat on!

I am 28 and live in a rented flat with DP in London. We recently had to move because our previous landlords could no longer afford their mortgage payments due to the Truss 'mini-budget'. We are now paying the highest rent I've ever paid, and I'm really starting to chew over the feasibility of living here long-term.

For context, I used to work in professional services on a p good salary (£45-55k), so I had OK savings. Last year I was offered a training contract with a law firm, and am now studying the legal conversion course before I join the firm. I applied to a firm that offered interesting and varied seats over one that would pay an eye-watering salary. If I qualified in London I would likely do so in 3 or so years on around £75-80k.

I have lived in London for 10 or so years, since uni. All my friends live here, and there is loads I love about the city. I nearly bought a tiny flat a couple of years ago, but pulled out as their were subsidence problems. However with every year that passes housing just seems to get costlier and costlier - even with current mortgage rates.

I have had to dip into my savings to support myself whilst studying (the stipend from the firm just doesn't cover my rent and living expenses... the London rental market is mad...) meaning I have £20k left in an ISA, earmarked for a housing deposit. But the simple fact is that realistically that's not even 10% on a shoe-box in Catford. I find myself increasingly exasperated by the fact - with current house prices - you can't have a 'normal' lifestyle in London unless you have an abnormally good salary.

All of my friends who own their homes do so because their parents paid for them! And I just don't come from that kind of background.

AIBU to think that in order to have a 'normal' life (i.e. house and kids) DP and I should move to a different city? and if so, where?

Thanks !

Law is a portable qualification. I'd personally move outside of London unless you're chasing a Megabucks job in a London specific practice.

I think your assessment is fair enough.
People often disperse over time for one reason or another, so though your friends are all there now that might not stay true which might be a small comfort if you end up leaving.
Where to go though, I'm not sure, I used to live Manchester (from there) but I left a decade ago and not sure what it's like now.

Thank you that is useful - Manchester is realistically the main city we have discussed as DP is from the North West and it has a great legal sector... plus the beautiful surrounding hills, good night life, good city 'buzz' etc. May I ask why you left?

*There not 'their' re subsidence problems... grr hate typo !

I think you could live in loads of places and still be in the city of London in under an hour, you don’t have to go far out to be able to afford to live and also have fresher air!

house prices are mad and I love the city, but I also love being able to leave it and live comfortably

Not to put a spike in your plan, but be aware it rains a LOT more in the north west than it does in the south east.

I grew up in the north west and one of the reasons I stay south is the lack of rain.

A friend of mine moved to Manchester a number of years ago and got quite depressed after three solid months of rain.

It's mad, isn't it? You have a great job and already have a bit of deposit saved and it doesn't feel enough.

When I was 28 (just over 10 years ago) all my friends lived in London, too, and no one had kids. By the time we were mid-late 30s, half of them had kids and 75% of them had moved out of London. The ones who have stayed in London have big mortgages and not as much of a London social life anymore because a) need to pay off big mortgage and b) loads of us have left.

I'm now in the outskirts of a big northern city. I mostly work from home but if I leave the house at 6.30am I can be in London for 9.30am. (Expensive train though!) For what it's worth there are more flat whites and vintage clothes shops here than where we lived in London and we can actually go out on an evening and walk home.

it does rain more ngl

if you can guarantee you’ll be on 75k within 3 years then you’ll be fine. But are you sure you can’t afford the shoebox in Catford? I know interest rates have gone up which makes it more difficult but I bought in SE London in 2021, with a 20k deposit on a 200k flat, when earning 45k. Add your partner’s income into the mix and I think you could definitely buy a decent one bed if not 2 bed in that area.

you can't have a 'normal' lifestyle in London unless you have an abnormally good salary.

It’s not really an abnormally good salary that’s necessary though. You will have a salary of 70-80k in a few years which is more than enough, on your previous 45k salary it would still have been fine.

You’re struggling now because you’re on a training allowance which would be the same struggle in any city.

AIBU to think that in order to have a 'normal' life (i.e. house and kids) DP and I should move to a different city? and if so, where?

Not really no, £80k plus whatever your partner earns is more than enough for a ‘normal’ life with kids and a house in London. It depends whether you want it or not.

We didn't do much 'leave Manchester' as go to the Lake District, we're really into outdoor pursuits and can work from home so can be based wherever we like.
The Manchester I knew was an ace place to be for loads of reasons. Night life, culture, food , jobs... Loads of good things, and decent connections to London when you want to visit.
It is grey compared to elsewhere but I'd take that over the kinds of summer temperatures London is going to be experiencing as standard more and more.

Depends on what you want - on £75k, assuming your DP earns similar, you will be able to afford a three bedroom house somewhere like Crystal Palace or Nunhead, state schools, and decent holidays. It might take you some time to save up a decent deposit (£100-150k), but you’ll be able to do it.

You could have a massive house in Manchester for much less money, and probably afford private school, a better car and better holidays. It really depends on a) whether you’ll actually earn that salary in Manchester, and b) how much you want to be in London itself.

Why would you want to live in central London long-term? We live in a pleasant green suburb with a good social life, excellent restaurants, plentiful flat whites, etc - and more importantly decent schools and housing. We can be in central London in half an hour.

One question is can you afford not to be in London? You may be able to attract a significantly bigger salary here, leading to exponentially bigger salary in 7, 10 or 12 years.

Are you talking a permanent future with DP? What is his income / future prospect? Buy with him, or if you buy alone have him contribute a rent / lodger sum?

Also lots of young professionals are finding housing in places like Norwood Junction, Norbury etc as prices push people south from Brixton / Streatham etc.

Have you spent all of your deposit from when you were looking a few years ago?

Thanks for all your responses ladies, all v useful.... especially the point about the rain, which I have thought about !

Sometimes I think I'm maybe a bit unduly dour about salary, but I think the issue is that with student loan debt and tax, 75k post-tax is c.£3,800 per month, which seems a bit mad as is only £700 or so more per month than what I earned in my last job, which was about £16k less (please no one call me a tory ho ho ho...!)

A 'naice' 2 bed flat at 450k at current interest rates (with 10% deposit, and if house prices retreat so too will banks ability to lend at high LTV) would be c.£2600 per month. Childcare then potentially £1k per month, and my partner doesn't work in a similar sector to me.

I think a big part of this is fear of debt / the unknown.... i.e. what would happen if it all went wrong IYSWIM...

Thing is, if you want somewhere nice and commutable to a law firm in Manchester, i.e. not down the car park that is the M62 (and some of Manchester is rough - I am from just over the Pennines), £20k is only 10% of a flat or tiny house there, too. It's not one of the mythical areas where housing is "cheap", just "cheaper".

Hello - can I ask which city you are in? I've been to Leeds and Liverpool for work previously and thought both were amazing (and walkable? though was shocked Leeds has no metro given its size!!!)

The big issue is what you consider a "normal life". I think a shoebox in Catford is a perfectly reasonable first step. The train line takes you into London Bridge in something like 12 minutes. You may not be able to afford an instagrammable central London home but your salary is perfectly adequate to live in London. If you are only counting your salary and not your partner's then he may as well be a SAHD and save you childcare costs. Otherwise both of your salaries need to be accounted for. Even if he only clears 1,5k a month, it bumps your budget significantly.

I do definitely see what you are saying, but I think that the fact that I'm switching careers a little bit later on means that I will probably have to choose between really gunning for it at work and having kids, unless I tried to have kids at 40 or so (which I know many women do!) DP is another woman which complicates things a bit as having children i.e. the actual conception bit is potentially a bit costlier. I see DP and I being together long-term, and she earns less than me. She is also a bit younger and so less anxious about the long-term future (nothing like a career change and the prospect of turning 30 to focus the mind....)

Seems like you're wanting to do a house purchase and schooling at the same time. You've saved for school, you can start saving again for a home when you're done.

£450k (or less) is more than enough for a a perfectly decent flat in a lot of zone 2/3 areas.

I mean my friends have just bought a three bed house for £510k in zone 5.

There is a lot of London to consider if you check your preconceptions in at the door.

Shared ownership now while your combined salary is lower and you qualify then you can increase,share to 100% when on the big $$

@Coastalwalks I live in Leeds and love it. It is not London but no other city in the UK is. I would choose it over a suburb or commuter town in the South East though. I was moved to a commuter town as a tween which frequently is cited as a nice place to live and got out as soon as I could. It was dull and snobbish. The lack of a mass transport system in Leeds is an issue that has been rumbling on since I first moved up here in 2001. At the time they had started work for a tram but central funding was pulled and over 20 years later.....!

Leeds has a big law and banking sector, the city centre is not spread out in the same way Manchester is and there is lots going on. You can buy more cheaply, but do not fall into the trap of thinking everywhere is cheap because it is the North. More desirable areas will still be expensive but as someone else said, 'not London expensive'. You can be in London in about 2 hours 20 mins by train.

Personally I prefer Leeds (and Liverpool) to Manchester, but that is my personal preference. I have now lived over half my life here, brought up DC here and it very much feels like home. I find the South East quite depressing to be honest when I visit, but still love London. There are several universities here which makes it a vibrant place and also boosts the economy. It is a multicultural city.

Obviously there are issues as everywhere, but in the scheme of things the City Council are quite forward thinking (initiatives like Child Friendly Leeds, green and sustainable targets) and despite massive cuts have managed to find ways to stay solvent. Obviously I grumble (my job is very much public sector and does not really exist outside as a statutory service) but speaking to friends and colleagues in other part of the UK I realise it is much more forward thinking than many.

You can buy a naice Victorian conversion flat for £375k in places like Lewisham - it might not be as chic as living in Stoke Newington or Islington but it has quick transport links to central for anything you might want out of London life.

I do agree in general terms that cost of living and especially housing is unbelievable considering salaries haven't gone up that much in the past 10 years.