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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we should up the age of consent to 18?

404 replies

whatnet · 19/09/2023 00:10

I just have this utterly sick feeling about the constant narrative pushed in the UK about a CHILD being ‘16’ and therefore, “what is your problem?”… “it’s ‘legal’” I am so sick of the exploitation of our girls in this country. Our CHILDREN. Our future. Who do not have a voice, because they are children. They need to be protected. I will pre empt some of your arguments. The UK government has classified the violence against Women and Girls as a “National Threat”

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/tackling-violence-against-women-and-girls-in-the-uk/

A 16 year old girl is a child and should be protected as a child, by law.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
BashfulClam · 28/09/2023 22:41

KandieKaine · 28/09/2023 18:35

You can't get married at 16 . The law has changed it's 18 now .

You can marry at 16 in Scotland and a couple can cross the border and get married .

Mooshamoo · 28/09/2023 22:42

I didn't realise that ireland was higher than most other European countries. Where you live - the rules become normal.

I cant even imagine living in a place where age is consent is 14.

It's strange then - people would be locked up for having sex with a 14 year old in England. But it's fine in Germany. The world is strange

cansu · 28/09/2023 22:45

I think it would be better to focus on equipping young people with knowledge about healthy relationships.

Boomboom22 · 28/09/2023 22:47

It used to be 12 in Belgium and Holland not long ago, def when I was a teenager.
18 is late, social pressures may play a part.
In deprived schools year 8 and 9 is the majority, in naice ones Yr 11 and 12. Even in the poshest ones Yr 13 would be quite late.
Note majority so say over 65% not all at all.
We cannot deny the link between puberty and sexual development, it is literally the point, reproductive drive. We are mammals.

Ilmecourtsurleharicot · 29/09/2023 05:39

I think it would be better to focus on equipping young people with knowledge about healthy relationships.

It would be nice if that were all that was needed but we need both to cover all kids. Not all kids are in school or get good sex and relationships education from school. Not all have parents who either feel able to talk about these issues of healthy relationships or can model healthy adult sexual relationships to their kids.

The law needs to be there as back up to give teenage girls and boys and their older groomers that necessity to think again when 16 year olds don’t have adults around them to protect them from what might seem like a positive relationship with a much older man. An older man who is actually exploiting them, which can have huge repercussions for them - but those kids don’t yet have the life experience to know it, or to know how to resist it and of course that is because ‘it’s all legal’ once they have their 16 birthday. As soon as you actually think about that it’s really disgusting and neglectful as a law. What are we actually waiting for to change this?

Ilmecourtsurleharicot · 29/09/2023 06:12

its very concerning how some posters are conflating physical capacity to have periods with quality of decision making about relationships. Decision making for most people fine tunes with greater life experience, which isn’t able to be there at a very young age.

Lots of girls start their periods in primary school these days. Surely you’re not suggesting 11 years old should be the age of consent?

Do you know much about safeguarding children and young people?

Maybe you can compare your views about the science of human brain maturation with the evolving research coming from the experts. But that’s not the focus of this thread.
https://www.psychiatry.cam.ac.uk/blog/2019/03/21/adulthood-only-happens-in-our-thirties/

Scientists agree that different parts of the brain mature at different times and that this maturation can vary between individuals. So in that varied picture society has to step in via lawmaking to do what it can to protect the most vulnerable.

And in this context the most vulnerable will be the youngest people who are legally currently allowed to be in sexual relationships with much older men, which we know can be extremely damaging to them, because they have told us so.

So again, from an anti-exploitation perspective, what are we waiting for to change the law?

Adulthood only happens in our thirties - Department of Psychiatry

New research suggests it might be time to rethink our ideas about when exactly a child becomes an adult.  Research suggests that most human brains take about 25 years to develop, though these rates can vary among men and women, and among individuals. A...

https://www.psychiatry.cam.ac.uk/blog/2019/03/21/adulthood-only-happens-in-our-thirties/

DoItAgainPlz · 29/09/2023 13:08

Poptones · 26/09/2023 18:39

I have no idea why you're so worked up about this, OP.
Really I mean it.
16 is about right for the majority.
You cannot make laws to suit everyone. The age of consent is what it is because it seems about right for most of us and that's good enough.
No law is perfect.

You come across like a pearl clutcher.
I mean what is your agenda?

16/18 makes no real difference if someone is victim to a predator.

I see no real changes between 16-18 anyway really. I mean what major psychological changes happen during those two years? Unless in employment, not much really. Most at still at school or further education.

So why not go the whole hog and raise it to 30 and only for people born in the same year?
Put a 30-year-old man who has sex with a 29-year-old in jail.

I'm truly sorry if you've suffered some grooming experience but I mean this in a kind way but really the world does not revolve around you.

I mean it. You're idea is nuts.

(This is from someone who lost their virginity at 19 BTW.)

I hope your idea goes nowhere as frankly this sort of illogical emotional response gets on my nerves.
Wasting government time when there's real issues of abuse to tackle. Effing annoying.

I agree but when I made this point the OP accused me of being a paedophile.

There's clearly an agenda here as the OP wants the age to be raised to 21. Insanity!

Honeychickpea · 29/09/2023 13:21

cansu · 28/09/2023 22:45

I think it would be better to focus on equipping young people with knowledge about healthy relationships.

Judging by Mumsnet we could do with educating adult women about healthy relationships, rather than focusing on age gaps.

Boomboom22 · 29/09/2023 23:13

Haha I've a psych degree and teach pshe, healthy relationships etc I think I know more than the majority of posters here.
I said sexual feelings and starting to think about acting on them is normal. Seriously strange extrapolation going on here.

KandieKaine · 30/09/2023 13:28

What happens when two 17 year old start having sex and one of them turns 18 ?

ehupo7 · 30/09/2023 15:13

KandieKaine · 30/09/2023 13:28

What happens when two 17 year old start having sex and one of them turns 18 ?

This has been covered at length within the thread

whatnet · 30/09/2023 19:53

Circe7 · 27/09/2023 21:06

@whatnet
I’m a lawyer. I’m interested in how law is made. You might rely on CPS guidelines not to prosecute where you have an offence where societal norms have changed such that there are instances where you no longer want to prosecute and the law itself hasn’t been changed. You don’t usually make new criminal law which would mostly apply to benign behaviour and then immediately introduce guidelines that your new law shouldn’t routinely be prosecuted.

Whether or not I’m thick, a blanket age 18 age of consent wouldn’t get through parliament because MPs would need to justify why the law was drafted to apply to two consenting 17 year olds if the intention of parliament was that it shouldn’t be applied in those circumstances.

so. @Circe7 it is really interesting that you are a Lawyer, but yet you are interested “how the law is made” you tell me?

The UK legal system is desperately in need of reforms to bring it into the modern day. Why wouldn’t it be changed? Based on your arguments CPS has no power (the very people who prosecute, and decide if their is enough evidence to even pursue a ‘crime’) Surely it is not “benign” behaviour when looking at a predator and a child? And surely this upping of the age of consent would not be ignored, and not passed in Parliament because of some ridiculous, archaic approach, not in line with protecting the children of today. 16 and 17 year olds.

OP posts:
whatnet · 30/09/2023 19:58

DoItAgainPlz · Yesterday 13:08

Poptones · 26/09/2023 18:39

I have no idea why you're so worked up about this, OP.
Really I mean it.
16 is about right for the majority.
You cannot make laws to suit everyone. The age of consent is what it is because it seems about right for most of us and that's good enough.
No law is perfect.

You come across like a pearl clutcher.
I mean what is your agenda?

16/18 makes no real difference if someone is victim to a predator.

I see no real changes between 16-18 anyway really. I mean what major psychological changes happen during those two years? Unless in employment, not much really. Most at still at school or further education.

So why not go the whole hog and raise it to 30 and only for people born in the same year?
Put a 30-year-old man who has sex with a 29-year-old in jail.

I'm truly sorry if you've suffered some grooming experience but I mean this in a kind way but really the world does not revolve around you.

I mean it. You're idea is nuts.

(This is from someone who lost their virginity at 19 BTW.)

I hope your idea goes nowhere as frankly this sort of illogical emotional response gets on my nerves.
Wasting government time when there's realissues of abuse to tackle. Effing annoying.
I agree but when I made this point the OP accused me of being a paedophile.

There's clearly an agenda here as the OP wants the age to be raised to 21. Insanity!

Oh come on now. You know fine well I have already addressed this point. What’s more important? 16 and 17 year olds being protected in law as children- from predators, not each other, that has been explained time and time again… or your nonsense arguments? I’m voting for the kids.

OP posts:
whatnet · 30/09/2023 20:03

Boomboom22 · Yesterday 23:13

Haha I've a psych degree and teach pshe, healthy relationships etc I think I know more than the majority of posters here.
I said sexual feelings and starting to think about acting on them is normal. Seriously strange extrapolation going on here.

Do you have children? Teenagers? The “haha” at the beginning would make me seriously question your professional standing to support children in this area.

OP posts:
whatnet · 30/09/2023 20:14

Hont1986 · 28/09/2023 12:30

It's part of the ongoing infantilisation of young adults by society. I see that "fully formed brain" myth has been going around this thread; if you listened to some people, you'd think that a 24 year old woman is practically a teenager.

“Although the brain stops growing in size by early adolescence, the teen years are all about fine-tuning how the brain works. The brain finishes developing and maturing in the mid-to-late 20s.”

It’s science.

OP posts:
ehupo7 · 30/09/2023 20:18

whatnet · 30/09/2023 20:14

Hont1986 · 28/09/2023 12:30

It's part of the ongoing infantilisation of young adults by society. I see that "fully formed brain" myth has been going around this thread; if you listened to some people, you'd think that a 24 year old woman is practically a teenager.

“Although the brain stops growing in size by early adolescence, the teen years are all about fine-tuning how the brain works. The brain finishes developing and maturing in the mid-to-late 20s.”

It’s science.

So you are suggesting the age of consent should be raised to mid-late 20s? Or if not, how is this relevant:

”The brain finishes developing and maturing in the mid-to-late 20s.”

?

whatnet · 30/09/2023 20:21

Ilmecourtsurleharicot · Yesterday 06:12

its very concerning how some posters are conflating physical capacity to have periods with quality of decision making about relationships. Decision making for most people fine tunes with greater life experience, which isn’t able to be there at a very young age.

Lots of girls start their periods in primary school these days. Surely you’re not suggesting 11 years old should be the age of consent?

Do you know much about safeguarding children and young people?

Maybe you can compare your views about the science of human brain maturation with the evolving research coming from the experts. But that’s not the focus of this thread.
https://www.psychiatry.cam.ac.uk/blog/2019/03/21/adulthood-only-happens-in-our-thirties/

Scientists agree that different parts of the brain mature at different times and that this maturation can vary between individuals. So in that varied picture society has to step in via lawmaking to do what it can to protect the most vulnerable.

And in this context the most vulnerable will be the youngest people who are legally currently allowed to be in sexual relationships with much older men, which we know can be extremely damaging to them, because they have told us so.

So again, from an anti-exploitation perspective, what are we waiting for to change the law?

I couldn’t put it any better myself. Thank you

Adulthood only happens in our thirties - Department of Psychiatry

New research suggests it might be time to rethink our ideas about when exactly a child becomes an adult.  Research suggests that most human brains take about 25 years to develop, though these rates can vary among men and women, and among individuals. A...

https://www.psychiatry.cam.ac.uk/blog/2019/03/21/adulthood-only-happens-in-our-thirties/

OP posts:
whatnet · 30/09/2023 20:24

So you are suggesting the age of consent should be raised to mid-late 20s? Or if not, how is this relevant:

”The brain finishes developing and maturing in the mid-to-late 20s.”

?

No, no I’m not. And you know I am not proposing this. You can read the thread. This thread has made me more worried for our children’s safety than I previously thought, which was still hugely concerning.

OP posts:
Ilmecourtsurleharicot · 30/09/2023 22:39

Thank you OP.
Once again, the creeps and their apologists on this thread are simply showing how important it is that the law is updated in this area.

Everyone who cares about this issues needs to write to your MP though, otherwise this won’t see the light of day. We also need to press for R&J based safeguarding updates to the law on consent to be an election issue. You’d think it would be an easy policy win for any party seeking the vote of parents so let’s see if we can use this unique opportunity of a general election on the way to get this issue on the agenda.

I’d imagine that Russell Brand might end up in court given the allegations against him, in which case this whole issue is going to remain on many people’s minds and politicians might want to be seen to be acting on that.

DoItAgainPlz · 01/10/2023 01:00

whatnet · 30/09/2023 20:24

So you are suggesting the age of consent should be raised to mid-late 20s? Or if not, how is this relevant:

”The brain finishes developing and maturing in the mid-to-late 20s.”

?

No, no I’m not. And you know I am not proposing this. You can read the thread. This thread has made me more worried for our children’s safety than I previously thought, which was still hugely concerning.

You literally said in an earlier post that you would raise it to 21!

There's nothing wrong with people having consenual sex.

ehupo7 · 01/10/2023 14:23

whatnet · 30/09/2023 20:24

So you are suggesting the age of consent should be raised to mid-late 20s? Or if not, how is this relevant:

”The brain finishes developing and maturing in the mid-to-late 20s.”

?

No, no I’m not. And you know I am not proposing this. You can read the thread. This thread has made me more worried for our children’s safety than I previously thought, which was still hugely concerning.

ok, if you are not, what is the relevance of this:

”The brain finishes developing and maturing in the mid-to-late 20s.”

?

ehupo7 · 01/10/2023 14:30

I have read the thread, I am on the thread, this is why I am asking. Your more recent post links an article as a supporting source that states people are not adults until their 30s, so again, I am curious how you feel this fits in with your opinion on when people are ready to have sex.

That is why you’re sharing your opinion with us strangers, isn’t it? To discuss them?

Mountaineer0009 · 01/10/2023 21:02

what about if it was made illegal for large age gap relationships especially when it could be debated how common they seem to be in some cases with celebrealities etc. ?

whatnet · 01/10/2023 21:39

Between 1886 and 1900, the WCTU petitioned every state legislature in the country, garnering more than 50,000 signatures in Texas alone, and dispatched women to legislative sessions from coast to coast to demand that the age of consent be raised to 18. Many lawmakers rejected women’s presence in public affairs and further resented the unprecedented campaign to curtail white men’s sexual prerogatives. So they stone-walled WCTU members, inserted neutralizing or mocking language in their proposed bills, and occasionally outright banned women from their galleries. The few legislators who went on record in support of young ages of consent voiced sympathy for hypothetical men who would be ensnared into marriage by conniving girls who consented to sex and later threatened to press charges. Nevertheless, by 1890, the WCTU and their allies in the labor and populist movements had succeeded in raising the age of consent to 14 or 16 in several states. This marked significant progress, but women advocates still wanted to raise it to 18.
Reformers lamented the challenges of directing public attention to this ongoing outrage, especially when respectable women were not supposed to talk about sex. In 1895, Willard forged an unlikely alliance with the “freethinking” (atheist or agnostic) feminist Helen Hamilton Gardener, who made raising the age of consent her focus in the 1890s. Though hardly anyone—least of all Willard—knew it, Gardener herself was a “fallen woman” who had moved and changed her name when she was 23 after Ohio newspapers publicized her affair with a married man. Feeling constrained by nonfiction and the Comstock Laws (which prohibited the publication or transmission of any “obscene” material), Gardener turned to fiction to dramatize the dire consequences of sexual assault and spur a complacent public to action. After the publication of her two novels, Is This Your Son, My Lord? (1890) and Pray You Sir, Whose Daughter? (1892), Gardener became known as “The Harriet Beecher Stowe of Fallen Women.”
While Gardener and Willard disagreed on religion and temperance, they agreed that men and women should abide by the same standard of sexual behavior. Gardener vigorously opposed the efforts of several states to weaken their statutory rape laws by including clauses stipulating that the law only applied to girls who could prove that they had been virgins at the time of their assault.
In addition to her novels, Gardener used her position as an editor of the liberal Arena magazine to promote age-of-consent reform. She chronicled reformers’ efforts, included detailed legislative reports and vote tallies from every state, and even published a “black list” of states that had not yet raised the age of consent above 14. She directed readers to write the nearly 9,000 state legislators in the country to ask their position on the age of consent, and she sent copies of her novels to lawmakers in states where age-of-consent legislation was pending. By 1900, 32 states had raised the age to between 14 and 18.
But most Southern state legislatures refused to budge. For years, black women—including Frances Ellen Watkins Harper and Ida B. Wells—had called attention to the fact that white men used rape as a tool of white supremacy. For a brief period before 1900, white women worked together with African American women, mainly in the WCTU, to revise age of consent laws. Before they were disenfranchised and forced out of office after Reconstruction, African American male legislators in the South also advanced legislation to raise the age of consent.
White Southern lawmakers stridently opposed revised age-of-consent laws because they did not want black women to be able to charge white men with a crime. Kentucky state representative A. C. Tompkins went on record with his opposition, explaining, “We see at once what a terrible weapon for evil the elevating of the age of consent would be when placed in the hands of a lecherous, sensual negro woman,” insinuating that black women, who he claimed matured earlier and had a more sexual nature, would seduce men and then accuse them of assault. But, as the historian Leslie K. Dunlap has documented, white legislators did pass new rape laws that allowed for brutal punishments, including castration, because these laws targeted black men and were used to justify lynching and disenfranchisement. Thanks to the lobbying of the WCTU, most Southern states raised the age of consent to 13 or 14, but these laws fell far short of reformers’ goals, as they generally pertained only to white girls and those who could prove they were virgins at the time.
These uphill campaigns proved to the activists, many of whom had not before been ardent suffragists, that women needed the vote and a voice in the legislatures. As the pioneering physician Emily Blackwell noted, opponents of women’s suffrage insisted that “men are always ready to remove any proved injustice to [women]. Yet the fact remains that the first states to raise the age of consent to that of majority [18], were those in which women had a direct voice in politics–Wyoming and Kansas.” In the 1880s, many of the WCTU’s thousands of members had stopped short of demanding the vote. By the end of the century, however, the unified and vocal support of the WCTU helped transform women’s suffrage into a mainstream movement.
As the National American Woman Suffrage Association’s (NAWSA) lead negotiator in Washington, Helen Hamilton Gardener went on to use the strategies she learned in lobbying to raise the age of consent to get the 19th Amendment through Congress: Apply pressure through the media, enlist legislators’ wives and daughters, build personal relationships with men in office and never underestimate the power of white Southern intransigence.
While the Colorado Senate would water down Rep. Holly’s bill (the final version raised the age to 18), NAWSA members celebrated this historic legislation at their annual meeting, and Susan B. Anthony sent Holly a warm letter of congratulations. Women then watched as this pattern of enfranchisement and new policies repeated itself in state after state. Two years after women gained the vote in California in 1911, for example, lawmakers raised the age of consent to 18 and increased prison sentences for rapists. The message was clear: Women voting meant women having a say over what happened to their bodies.
Suffrage organizations, smaller and eager to appear mainstream, were less likely than the WCTU to openly champion age-of-consent reform (though individual chapters did help with petition drives), but the rights to “self-ownership” and “voluntary motherhood” remained fundamental goals, as historians Lauren MacIvor Thompson and Heather Munro Prescott have shown. They believed that women voters would usher in a new age of politics in which the needs of women and children would be paramount. Unfortunately, suffragists never replicated the interracial coalition that had briefly worked together to raise the age of consent. Mainstream suffrage organizations, including NAWSA and the National Woman’s Party, discriminated against and cold-shouldered African American women, who worked for the vote through black women’s clubs, churches and civil rights organizations.
In the 100 years since the ratification of the 19th Amendment, age-of-consent laws have remained on the books (all states now set the age between 16 and 18), although the internet, child marriage and other workarounds undermine these standards. Subsequent generations of activists have succeeded in criminalizing marital rape, moving conversations about sexual assault away from victim-blaming, and introducing the concept of sexual harassment into employment laws.
Women won the vote, but the sexual double standard that 19th-century women fought against still persists and may well be patriarchy’s last, best tool. The age-of-consent campaigns that brought thousands of women into reform work and, ultimately, suffrage activism, show what is possible when women work together across racial, economic and ideological lines. Gardener and her colleagues longed for the day when women would be recognized as “self-respecting, self-directing human units with brains and bodies sacredly their own,” and the #MeToo movement carries on this long tradition of activism today.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/what-raising-age-sexual-consent-taught-women-about-vote-180975658/

Sex, Love, Race

Offers a portrait of the overlapping construction of racial, ethnic, and sexual identities in AmericaSince pre-colonial days, America has been both torn apar...

https://nyupress.org/9780814735565/sex-love-race/

OP posts:
whatnet · 01/10/2023 21:53

“Yet the fact remains that the first states to raise the age of consent to that of majority [18], were those in which women had a direct voice in politics–Wyoming and Kansas.”

“in which women had a direct voice in politics”–

Are women’s voices heard in UK politics? They are not even heard on mumsnet by other females. It is a depressing state of affairs.

OP posts:
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