Working class women and DV = kids removed. Celebrities and people with money - no involvement

[Redfoxs]

I've known of multiple women to lose their children to adoption after failing to stay away from an abusive partner. It happens up and down the country all of the time. We all know that.

So why is it when somebody with money is involved, the services don't seem to care?

Case in point.

Dappy from Ndubz. He has a long history of abusing partners going way back to the mother of his eldest children. Multiple arrests, her posting images of her injuries online.

Fast forward to 2017 he's put in prison for attacking a more recent partner. The mother of his youngest children. In the home they share with their then baby daughter. A knife is involved and he needs to be restrainted by 4 members of the public before threatening to stab the police.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4499994/amp/Dappy-remanded-custody-attacked-partner.html

The girlfriend was all over social media calling him a narcissistic psychopath, drug abuser, violent, a danger..

As soon as Ndubz make a comeback she's moved him back in with her and the kids, is accompanying him on the tours, having spats with another woman who he was seeing in the interim and singing his praises as though he's the best thing since sliced bread.

Who is safeguarding those children then?

If this all happened before the fame then those children would have likely been removed long before the incident for which he was imprisoned.

Social services don't always get it right. There have been times I've completely disagreed with them, I am most definitely not advocating for mass forced adoption but come on.. what's with the disparity?

Risk is risk, isn't it?

Does having money in the bank make it less likely that children will suffer emotional (at the very least) harm?

Why is it OK for people with money to abuse drugs and behave in a domestically violent way and their lives go on uninterrupted but your run of the mill working class couple down the road get hauled into court and their children removed.

AIBU?

But are they both wasters, or is it that both are being frivolous.

Thank you! Where I have been has bought me here. Today, I'm comfortable in my own skin, and thank god for what I have, not what I don't.

There has to be a level of expectation ofcourse however the S.S. takes it to lengths that to jump their hoops, you will never stop jumping.

I was told that in Scotland, the S.S work with the families rather than against them.

Where I have been, I used to help others today. There had to be a purpose to it all.

Further up, there is a post mentioning Katie Price. Katie Price is from a working class background and was raised by her mom, who was a single parent. Katie is a single parent herself

Certainly, Katie is another example of fame keeping her children from being completely removed from her.

It's the fame only in Katie case as she is W.C, and let's face it, chavvy. An average private person with a background of single mom, drink, and mental health issues would struggle to keep out social services involvement.

I think the factors you mention can have varying perms into what is taken into account.

In Katie's case, it is fame only that stopping any S.S involvement and/or removal.

Though some of her children did live with one of her exs, she now has them back because he is in trouble over drugs. A private citizen with both troubled parents' children would not have had them returned.

A few figures for you to round off .y response

In 2001 -2002, my legal aid bill alone came to £110,000 Plus vat. At the time, over the next 9 years, as legal aid was still available, you all have been able to take it up to over a million.

That's just the courts. You have the S.S S.W, their managers, administration, they're various services attached involved, overheads, the carers to pay, plus all their additional monies they can claim.

You have the court staff and judges, the guardian for the children and their legal, and the number of different types of psychs involved stood at 12 at one stage. I could go on ad infinite. My case alone costs millions. I saved them money by tithing to get my kids out of care. I dread to think how much it is today.

The system is needed, the system doesn't work

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/jp-mcmanus-s-son-in-legal-bid-to-keep-wife-s-toxicology-report-private-1.4496254

I wonder what happened to these children, and whether the father had to toddle along to some drug programme weekly meetings in a dingy part of town and do parenting classes in order to keep them. Probably not- his daddy is very, very, very rich.

Ive been reading about the Ioan Gruffud Alice Evans case this weekend and i watched the interview she did with Lorraine two years ago.

A highly toxic situation which has to have affected the childrens mental health.

I’ve been homeless twice in my life, as a child age 10-11 when my parents divorced we lived in a shelter until we were housed in a council house. We were 7-8 months in the shelter when we were offered a 3 bed council home. Then again aged 16 when I had to leave home when my mother told me to leave as she couldn’t cope with me and her new partner living there….she chose him! Something now as a parent myself I could never ever do, and will never forgive her for, it changed the trajectory of my life forever. The first shelter I was put in was a shock to my very core, drug addiction, prostitution, mental illness all the things naive 16 year old me had never faced and I spent months terrified of my own shadow. The second shelter was much better, young girls like me with issue at home, but still scary at times. I did not wait to be housed, terrible though this may be to admit but I circumvented the system and got myself out of there as soon as I could. I knew I could be there years as not a priority, I could have made myself one by getting pregnant which some girls did, but at 16 I was in no frame to be a decent mother and so I didn’t want to do this, I wanted to be a good mum and have a family with the right person at the right time, and not for the sake of getting a council house or flat any quicker. This was back in the mid 90s and I dread to think of what the system is like today, or how I would survive it in its current form.

At no point in either of the 2 instances above were social services ever involved, there was reason to be and I won’t go into why, but they were never involved.

My point is how you are viewed by others can change so much based on your class/financial circumstances. I went from being a smart, studious well behaved kid to being homeless and in a hostel and I was suddenly treated so very differently, as if I must have done something terribly wrong to be in my situation, I was looked down upon, treated as though I would lie or steal or worse, it was expected that I did drugs or got drunk and put myself about. Whilst in my second hostel an ambulance had to be called for me when I suddenly became extremely unwell, I was not believed when I told them I hadn’t taken any drugs, wasn’t pregnant etc (I understand that they have to ask and that was fine) eyes were rolled and I heard them have conversations in front of me about what I must have taken as if I wasn’t even there. I was cared for yes, but was treated with disdain and as if I was a complete nuisance. Turned out I had a water infection that was spreading to my kidneys! I was at my lowest point, was poorly and I felt worthless and so ashamed to be there, a little care and compassion would have gone a very long way.

I am now in my 40s nice home which is owned, stable and respectable life with DH of 20 years and 5 children. I have fought tooth and nail to be where I am and take absolutely nothing for granted. I have told all my children repeatedly that regardless of their age or situation that they can always always come home, their children too if they have them. They will never ever be homeless or helpless and I’ll be damned if I never let them be in a position to be treated as I was, it was completely damaging to my esteem and self worth to be treated as I was, forget all the other awful stuff that happened, this treatment alone took me years of recovery and I still don’t think I’m all the way there.

It took me until well into adulthood to realise what a knife edge my life was on at that time. I was so vulnerable to so many things and indeed many awful thing did happen to me, but things could have ended up so differently to how they did. I was prey to so many predatory men who offered to help me out, give me my own place…but for a price of course. I was so lucky sheltered and naive 16 year old me didn’t run into the arms of any of these masquerading would be rescuers.

I never ever judge any woman for the situation she finds herself in, for the man she had her kids with, for the amount of money in her bank, where she lives, for the abuse she suffers or indeed how she copes with it.

It is so so easy to judge someone whose shoes you have never walked in, you have the luxury of distance and hindsight to to say what you would and wouldn’t do, but in reality you can never know because you have been through what they have been through, lived and survived how they have had to. It’s so easy to say just get help, firstly that help isn’t all that easy to get in the first place, secondly how helpful is that help when it’s coming to you from a place of judgement and condescension, how are you supposed to know your worth, protect yourself/your kids and pick yourself up off the floor and pull yourself up by the boot straps and get on when everyone around you treats you like a failure already! It isn’t any wonder to me why some women really struggle to leave abusive relationships, protect themselves and their kids despite trying.

I don’t say any of this to bash services that are there to help and undoubtedly they do some good and I’m very thankful they exist whilst also feeling very sorry that they should need to exist in the first place. There are good people who do help and who do good work and treat all people with kindness and respect, it’s just that in my experience these good people were in the minority.

We could all do with less judgement for class, income, education, upbringing, background. It doesn’t matter who you are or where you come from or how much you earn, we could all be in need of these services at some point in our lives, and it would be a terrible shame to be treated differently or worse because of any one of those factors.

I actually began thinking similar to you after I read the Pearl Lowe biography.

I work with vulnerable kids and have seen many families have SS involvement for demonstrating the behaviour she outlined but apparently if you're not poor it's bohemian not problematic.

@OneRingToRuleThemAll I was told that completing parenting classes is a condition for getting an ASD assessment. I've done it twice now and on neither occasion did it take my kids' autism away, funnily enough! Could it be because I live in a so called deprived area?

@BlossomCloud my mum often used to try to get me to appear more middle class both during childhood (she was a single parent and scared of judgement) and then as a young single mum myself. I think there definitely is some truth that being in higher education, well (ish) dressed etc affected how people such as health visitors and nursery staff perceived me.

Blimey I’m just wondering where you live/work where you know multiple women who have had their children taken away from them.
I always thought it was the opposite, not enough children taken away from terrible parents in my opinion.

Regarding alcohol, 30 units of alcohol say per week will do harm over time, whether 1879 burgandy, prosecco or Buckfast and dragon soup. However it is clear from crime statistics which type or brands feature more in DV, anti social behaviour and assaults.

Being able to literately and confidently refute (or lodge complaints against a third party) carried a lot of weight. Not necessarily class but education and mindset.

Grimsby. If you know, you know.

Where do you live/work where you know loads of terrible parents who haven't lost their children?

I do this now.

Perhaps not exactly aiming to be seen as middle class per se, but I make a concerted effort to dress well and speak eloquently. I double that effort when it comes to dealing with school, doctors etc. I think I come off reasonably well and you wouldn't guess I'm from the background that I am unless you knew me then.

It's like I knew about the bias before I even stopped to think about the bias. I've always known I guess.

I am convinced that some celebs actually don’t have custody of their kids only visiting rights and it is quite rightly kept out of the press for the sake of the kids.

Sorry @Redfoxs I didn’t read your whole post.

Same with like the Mcanns not having their children removed after leaving tgem alone every night on holiday but if a couple on low income or benefits did that they would have had their children removed no doubt!

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/ben-needhams-tearful-mum-slams-12271252

I can absolutely believe it. My mum was in and out of mental health institutions for most of my childhood. She’s quite posh and there was not a sniff of social services involvement but there probably should have been.

My friend’s sister in law seems to spend most of her time off her tits on coke leaving her child with her parents as she can’t be arsed to look her other than for instagram pictures. If she was poor I don’t doubt social services would have been involved by now. Her parents have enabled her shitty parenting and the child will be in boarding school before she’s 10 but they’ve had money and family time to throw at the issue so will be at no risk of referral.

There needs to be significantly more support for victims of DV/abuse. The victim is often held to account for the other person's vile behaviour. No such interrogations for the perpetrator. It's sick.

And yes, I agree - money talks. If it's one thing that has become abundantly clear over the last few years is that if you are wealthy, the rules do not apply to you - IMO.

Amen to this!

I just want to say thank you @Redfoxs
This thread has been truly thought promoting and I agree with what you are saying. Class, race, money all combine to impact on what is judged to be acceptable behaviour. Unfortunately (when it comes to neglect) wee Jimmy in the council house, is far more likely to be removed from his working class parents, than James whose parents are middle class and have money and a lovely home. There is no equality and I honestly don’t think there ever will be.

With regard to the McCanns, I (and I think many others) would have had far more respect for them, if they had admitted that they were in the wrong to leave their children alone in the apartment. Instead they just said that “the group of families were sitting outside and could just as easily have been eating on a fine spring evening in a friend’s garden, with the kids asleep upstairs in the house". How many families have a garden so enormous, that this could be remotely possible?

Nobody has had their children removed for this.

Some of it is about bigger picture as well though. Sadly, the threshold for SS involvement especially child protection or removal of children is phenomenally high. The good enough threshold is not something most people would consider good enough.

In a middle class family there may be neglect/ emotional abuse for example but there is also a clean house, education, nutritious food, two parents and hobbies for the children to attend.

In a working class family there may be the same emotional or physical abuse but also Multiple children by multiple fathers, scruffy house, poor nutrition, shouting, low education in the child so the bigger picture is meeting the threshold for removal where the primary concern may not be on its own.

Yes they have!

Child removal from low income families is fucking rife where I'm from. I know of EXACTLY this happening in one case.

Young mum leaves small child home alone whilst she went out (completely unacceptable behaviour i might add). Neighbour sees the child distressed home alone in the window and called the police who involved social services who then REMOVED THE CHILD.

Comments like yours make me incandescent because I KNOW prompt removal of low income families children happens. I've SEEN it happen to plenty of people around me time and time again and it's happened to ME!

I've never left a child alone FYI, but I was dragged through sheer hell by social services when I was 18 and pregnant with my first baby, reliant on benefits and abandoned by my waste of space mother and trapped with an abusive partner.

I'm much older now, have a nice home and good job, reasonably well earning DH. They couldn't be less interested when I approached them for support in accessing help for my disabled child.

It was like night and day.

Please, stop talking out your arse you haven't got a damn clue what you're talking about.

You're more than welcome, thank you for taking the time to read and contribute. It has been a breath of fresh air to see so many people recognising and confirming that this is a problem and too many children slip through the net and are left to suffer just because they're from money. It's tragic and heartbreaking.

The problem is when it counts against you though. I am tediously MC through and through (background and profession). I kept trying to tell midwives etc about the abuse I was suffering and they just did little tinkly laugh and said things like. " Yes relationships get tricky when we are pregnant".

And then the courts /cafcass just didn't want to accept how abusive my ExH was and is, because he presents as so charmingly MC.