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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

School budget cuts- is this normal?

276 replies

SummerDuck · 01/07/2023 11:38

So a letter has come out from DS’s school titled “Plans for the next academic year”. Basically due to teacher pay rises, inflation and government funding freeze, there will need to be changes in how the school operates.

The school are proposing 20 teacher redundancies with the drama and French departments closing. There will be a “reset” of catering provision with reduced staffing and a heat from frozen offer.

School trips are being “paused” while most office staff will go, with teachers picking up some of these tasks. Is this the norm bod for state schools?

OP posts:
Foxesandsquirrels · 02/07/2023 13:45

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2023 13:18

Maybe so but given what has happened to my son this year, I'd have been screaming blue murder and going legal on the school and the staff have every reason to as well. The fact they aren't shows how conditioned they've been to accept violence in the classroom. Which is depressing and I'd argue unlawful in its own right - it's just not being tested in courts. Yet.

My suspicion is that it probably will do before too long.

I know there are parents who are at fault and refuse to send their kids to a special school, even when a space is available. I know there's also those who criticize the school every time their kid destroys everything in their path. " It's your responsibility to meet their needs" etc.
I get all of that. However, in my experience most parents of kids with SEN like this, do kick up a fuss. They are crying to IPSEA weekly, begging for help. I've been on those calls. It's so depressing. Our head is going through judicial review for an SEN child. They are trying so so hard. These heads are also humans. For the most part they have kids in the same system, with the same problems. When you exclude now, you have to weigh up so much. You're almost playing pretend CPS. Is the admin involved in this case worth it being overturned? Where is the child going to go? With an EHCP they can't arrange a managed move to see if it'll work out or to get the child out of that situation quickly. Even an emergency annual review can take months. With a child without a plan, this can be arranged within a week.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2023 13:46

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2023 13:40

The current block on asking parents isn't helping the situation

There isn't a current block on asking parents for money, quite a few schools ask parents to set up direct debits to the school. It just shouldn't be seen as a solution to the government adequately funding schools because essentially you are creating part-private schooling but on the sly.

There are rules on gift giving though in terms of what is allowed and what isn't in case it's an attempt to buy favour.

Having some parents contribute several thousand would mean some would feel they could start making demands and get a priority service.

Hence why it's controlled to a degree.

Foxesandsquirrels · 02/07/2023 13:48

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2023 13:46

There are rules on gift giving though in terms of what is allowed and what isn't in case it's an attempt to buy favour.

Having some parents contribute several thousand would mean some would feel they could start making demands and get a priority service.

Hence why it's controlled to a degree.

We had a parent once demand to receive a breakdown of what they £200 donation to the school was used for and how it benefitted their child.

spanieleyes · 02/07/2023 14:19

@Foxesandsquirrels

The local authority refused an emergency review because they said the outcome would be the same as the previous one, that the child needed specialist provision. Still didn't help find a placement.

itsgettingweird · 02/07/2023 14:31

I couldn't in good conscience work in that environment on a day to day basis expected to turn a blind eye.

Neither can a lot of people. Why do you think TAs are leaving in droves and teachers too.

Because they are expected to be everything for everyone and don't get paid enough or recognised for the job they do.

Education has changed. And not for the better.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2023 14:47

itsgettingweird · 02/07/2023 14:31

I couldn't in good conscience work in that environment on a day to day basis expected to turn a blind eye.

Neither can a lot of people. Why do you think TAs are leaving in droves and teachers too.

Because they are expected to be everything for everyone and don't get paid enough or recognised for the job they do.

Education has changed. And not for the better.

Oh I totally get it.

Nothing will change before DS leaves primary either...

Foxesandsquirrels · 02/07/2023 14:52

spanieleyes · 02/07/2023 14:19

@Foxesandsquirrels

The local authority refused an emergency review because they said the outcome would be the same as the previous one, that the child needed specialist provision. Still didn't help find a placement.

And you've just touched on the other problem. LAs thinking their policies are above the law. I'm not saying they're all made up of heartless assholes. Just like schools, they've been put in impossible positions. The government saying welp, we wrote into law that LAs are responsible for this. Forget the fact we haven't funded this or given them more for special schools.

regustering · 02/07/2023 15:33

PotteringAlonggotkickedoutandhadtoreregister · 01/07/2023 11:47

Completely.

I teach in an outstanding secondary. And not “historically outstanding but not been inspected for 17 years”, but given outstanding within the last 6 months.

we’re scrapping German next year. No money, no teachers. Teaching staff were offered voluntary redundancy and about 10 have taken it. They will not be replaced.
our department meetings which have, historically, been part of our timetable will now need to take place after school and our teaching load is increasing.

it’s not just that education funding has been cut to the bone. It’s that all the other services have been cut too and we are expected to pick up the slack. And pay for the services (like mental health, speech and language etc etc) that would have existed at another point in time.

How can a teacher be made redundant when there are students ?

MrsHamlet · 02/07/2023 15:42

Because you scrap a course, and bingo - no need for a teacher.
Or you increase all class sizes, and bingo - no need for a teacher.

Fairislefandango · 02/07/2023 15:44

How can a teacher be made redundant when there are students?

Because they can't afford to pay them.

Startyabastard · 02/07/2023 15:53

I know someone in their mid 50s that can't read or write due to dyslexia.
I'm guessing that with the right support and assistance, that he'd have been able to achieve more and have greater self esteem.
How horrible would it be for children that need some more help in the classroom to succumb to this in 2023?

donquixotedelamancha · 02/07/2023 16:39

regustering · 02/07/2023 15:33

How can a teacher be made redundant when there are students ?

I took VR a year ago, it was offered to all experienced teachers. It left 3 Science staff in a department with 9 posts (in itself that was 2 posts down for the same number of kids).

Those posts were filled by:

PE teachers
A geography teacher
Unqualified teachers
A science teacher who hadn't been able to get a permanent job in 10 years, so was willing to take lower pay.

Maths were worse off than us.

TrundleWheel76 · 02/07/2023 16:41

I'm a former primary teacher with a maths specialism. For a while earlier this year my CV was on an online recruitment site. I was offered (and declined) countless teaching jobs, including A level maths, physics and chemistry teacher positions. Schools are obviously desperate.

regustering · 02/07/2023 21:44

MrsHamlet · 02/07/2023 15:42

Because you scrap a course, and bingo - no need for a teacher.
Or you increase all class sizes, and bingo - no need for a teacher.

You can only get so many in a class? And you need a certain number of teaching hours a day and a certain number of subjects?

MrsHamlet · 02/07/2023 21:55

regustering · 02/07/2023 21:44

You can only get so many in a class? And you need a certain number of teaching hours a day and a certain number of subjects?

34 in a class - check
Who needs drama? Music only one lesson a week instead of two. Same with several other "luxury" subjects.
We've got to balance the books.

LacieLane · 02/07/2023 22:09

cantkeepawayforever · 02/07/2023 12:14

I have had children rejected from Special Schools and left in mainstream because their needs were too great to be met in a Special School……

So much of this happening at the minute.

System is broken. LA’s can't open new schools any longer. LA’s can build or repurpose a school.
We have a special school waiting to be built and two repurposed from closed primaries, however they all need an academy trust to agree to open the new schools.

No trusts interested.

Children with really severe needs, without special school places. To keep them in school ( and prevent huge further costs to the LA - no extra government funding) they are ‘off timetable’ - support service recommended - with a 1-1 or 2-1, school funded, again without any extra money in the school budget, working in a room without any other children.

Hardly a model for inclusive education. Shocking

LacieLane · 02/07/2023 22:34

I am also going to defend, or rather explain on behalf of LA’s.

We all want the best for children, however a school exclusion and the danger of reaching a 15 day absence, is avoided as far as possible, as this would mean the LA is responsible for educating each child.

This money, to educate the child, has to be found in LA budgets.

Places to educate the child, may be out of the LA. These will be private. Our private AP provision, costs £600 per day per child, run from a room on an industrial estate.
The LA has to transport the child, with fuel costs (and lack of staff), pressures and costs for transport are exceeding anything known previously.

Parents, who quite rightly want the best for their child can go to a judicial review. This will find in favour of the parent and child. It is quite common, that in these cases, educating one child (again through private provision) can cost in the region of £110,000 per child, per year.

Like schools, there is no money.
Central Tory government has starved LA’s of funding.

Basic services like AP and special have become a private venture, with shareholder dividends, with company CEO salaries. It is a vicious circle.

Add to the mix, that this year ( and the last 4 years) a local LA has been told it must save £5.5 million on it's Children’s Services budget.

You can see why education, along with other services for children, are broken and why their is huge pressure, at all levels within the system.

Foxesandsquirrels · 02/07/2023 23:03

@LacieLane This is exactly how we managed to get a special private school written into DDs EHCP. The way she was going, the alternative would've been private AP. The LA straight up told me the independent is cheaper.

UsingChangeofName · 02/07/2023 23:11

But sadly, @Foxesandsquirrels so many parents of children with significant SEND just aren't able to fight the LA.

They may not have English as a first language - or may not speak English at all
They may not have the literacy skills, or IT skills, or confidence, or cognition and understanding, or often a combination of these. Then there are so many that are just completely and utterly exhausted.

I' really pleased that you have managed to get the best provision for your dd, but that doesn't really answer the problem for society, for schools, and for all the other dc who haven't got that place.

Foxesandsquirrels · 02/07/2023 23:18

@UsingChangeofName Did I say it does? What a bizarre comment? You have no idea how much we had to fight and how much free legal advice I give to parents. Not to mention tribunal representation. Trust me, I know all too well.

LacieLane · 03/07/2023 20:19

UsingChangeofName · 02/07/2023 23:11

But sadly, @Foxesandsquirrels so many parents of children with significant SEND just aren't able to fight the LA.

They may not have English as a first language - or may not speak English at all
They may not have the literacy skills, or IT skills, or confidence, or cognition and understanding, or often a combination of these. Then there are so many that are just completely and utterly exhausted.

I' really pleased that you have managed to get the best provision for your dd, but that doesn't really answer the problem for society, for schools, and for all the other dc who haven't got that place.

Sad state of affairs all round. No criticism of anyone fighting for the rights if their child.

However, any money, used to pay for extortionate private provision comes from the LA’s budget.
Nothing extra from central government, so guess what....less money for every other child in the system, less money to build special schools, less money for specialists.

None of this is sustainable.

Foxesandsquirrels · 04/07/2023 09:49

LacieLane · 03/07/2023 20:19

Sad state of affairs all round. No criticism of anyone fighting for the rights if their child.

However, any money, used to pay for extortionate private provision comes from the LA’s budget.
Nothing extra from central government, so guess what....less money for every other child in the system, less money to build special schools, less money for specialists.

None of this is sustainable.

I get you, I do. However, SEND is expensive whether that's state or private. This is an interesting read:
https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/our-key-themes/children-and-young-people/education-and-school-places/do-maths-2018/special#:~:text=Local%20authorities%20are%20committed%20to,as%20a%20mainstream%20school%20place.

This is based on data up until 2018. The situation is far worse now. My DDs independent specialist school doesn't cost anymore than if it was a state specialist. It's actually cheaper than the cost per pupil in our local state specialist autism school. There is no state specialist school for SpLD in London. I think there's a handful in the whole of the UK.
It is extremely expensive to educate kids with SEN as they need such bespoke support. The government seems determined to create laws and guidance that they expect LAs, schools and external agencies to live up to, but don't provide any money to actually enable them to meet those responsibilities. The overhaul of the SEN system that introduced EHCPs was brilliant, and politicians can stand and say, we now look after the most vulnerable until 25. But actually, you just made that law, you didn't actually do anything to help those responsible for implementing it, to do so.

Foxesandsquirrels · 04/07/2023 10:23

@LacieLane https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/our-key-themes/children-and-young-people/education-and-school-places/do-maths-2017/special

A more up to date one. This is just a summary. You can download the report at the bottom. It's very informative. What I find really interesting is the population of SEND students in special schools. I don't know if this will copy well:

Type of need - London special schools
Change per
2010 2017 (2010 to 2017) cent
Autistic Spectrum Disorder 2910 5390 2,480 +85%
Severe Learning Difficulty 2540 3154 614 +24%
Profound & Multiple Learning Difficulty 1140 1558 418 +37%
Speech, Language and Communications Needs 680 874 194 +29%
Specific Learning Difficulty 100 214 114 +114%
Multi-Sensory Impairment 40 60 20 +50%
Visual Impairment 220 226 6 +3%
Hearing Impairment 190 182 -8 -4%
Moderate Learning Difficulty 1850 1617 -233 -13%
Physical Disability 680 390 -290 -43%

The biggest increase in pupils in special schools have been those with specific learning difficulties and autism. Is there just more kids with those conditions? Yes, I'm sure early diagnosis has helped. However, not a 114% and 85% increase. What happened between 2010-2017? Funding. Not only did the funding get cut, but also the curriculum changed. Goves curriculum is not inclusive and is inaccessible for most with specific learning difficulties, without very intense support. Intense support that schools can't afford since 2010.
So alongside cutting the funding, they also made the curriculum more expensive to implement to kids with SEND. Meanwhile they shouted inclusivity and high quality teaching for all, whilst closing down special schools. This caused them this problem that they now can't afford to solve but expect LAs to. My DD is one of the very lucky few that will get to have her needs met, and it may be too late for her. She's broken.

LacieLane · 04/07/2023 18:36

Foxesandsquirrels · 04/07/2023 10:23

@LacieLane https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/our-key-themes/children-and-young-people/education-and-school-places/do-maths-2017/special

A more up to date one. This is just a summary. You can download the report at the bottom. It's very informative. What I find really interesting is the population of SEND students in special schools. I don't know if this will copy well:

Type of need - London special schools
Change per
2010 2017 (2010 to 2017) cent
Autistic Spectrum Disorder 2910 5390 2,480 +85%
Severe Learning Difficulty 2540 3154 614 +24%
Profound & Multiple Learning Difficulty 1140 1558 418 +37%
Speech, Language and Communications Needs 680 874 194 +29%
Specific Learning Difficulty 100 214 114 +114%
Multi-Sensory Impairment 40 60 20 +50%
Visual Impairment 220 226 6 +3%
Hearing Impairment 190 182 -8 -4%
Moderate Learning Difficulty 1850 1617 -233 -13%
Physical Disability 680 390 -290 -43%

The biggest increase in pupils in special schools have been those with specific learning difficulties and autism. Is there just more kids with those conditions? Yes, I'm sure early diagnosis has helped. However, not a 114% and 85% increase. What happened between 2010-2017? Funding. Not only did the funding get cut, but also the curriculum changed. Goves curriculum is not inclusive and is inaccessible for most with specific learning difficulties, without very intense support. Intense support that schools can't afford since 2010.
So alongside cutting the funding, they also made the curriculum more expensive to implement to kids with SEND. Meanwhile they shouted inclusivity and high quality teaching for all, whilst closing down special schools. This caused them this problem that they now can't afford to solve but expect LAs to. My DD is one of the very lucky few that will get to have her needs met, and it may be too late for her. She's broken.

A mess of a system, isn't it. It doesn't work for anyone.

Dotandtime · 04/07/2023 18:45

I do think league tables and pressure on schools to deliver academic results has been really detrimental for so many children.

School now sets up almost half (ie everyone below average) to fail. Imagine being forced to turn up to a job everyday where you can't possibly succeed, what would your mood/temper be like?