Canada’s euthanasia for the mentally ill

[Noicant]

https://globalnews.ca/news/9454089/medically-assisted-dying-bill-mental-disorder/

Canada is in the process of introducing the option of Euthanasia for the mentally ill. It looks like this has been delayed for the time being but AIBU to find this concerning?

Just to be clear I fully support euthanasia as an option for people with terminal or chronic conditions. I think it’s human to offer people a peaceful death when there is no chance of things improving.

BUT this seems utterly mad to me. I’ve suffered from poor mental health in the past and only started feeling better after going through a few therapists and finding the right one. There were many times over 20years where I would have happily signed up for death. If someone is so ill that they are very impaired by their condition are they truly competent to make a decision like this and if it’s milder isn’t there a possibility of recovery?

It seems utterly dystopian. I guess I’m looking for someone to help me understand if I’ve missed something or not understood something that will help me understand why anyone would think this is a good idea.

There was a case in the Netherlands where a woman was held down and euthanised. They put sedative in her tea. They then went to inject her, she kicked the syringe out of the doctors hand. The doctor had her held down and then euthanised her. All because when unwell the woman had made comments about wishing to die when the time is right. They went by what she said at her lowest moments, but ignored her desperate physical struggles when they went to euthanise her. To me that was murder.

That was a dementia patient who had an advance directive (so not just comments) and absolutely that should not have happened. My father had Parkinsons and was offered an advance directive in the Netherlands - this was in 2015. He had capacity at that point and he said no. Later when he deteriorated and his capacity was a fluctuating thing, he had deep regrets at his choice at those times when he was fully 'present' - but he was no longer considered to have capacity to change his mind.

IMO in the case of dementia, where consent is withdrawn at the point of acting on an advance directive, that withdrawal should be taken at absolute face value and no further attempts should be made - even if the person in question goes on to request an assisted suicide at a later point. In practice that would mean that dementia patients will take that decision much earlier when they still have capacity, but so be it. At least you can't argue (yet) that a dementia patient might recover. And no, they don't all just 'forget about it' and live happily with advanced dementia at some point. My father was miserable, angry, aggressive in his final 6 months.

@Stressedtothemax I'm going to bow out because I have been finding this upsetting + you aggressive. But just one last thing - I'm in my 50s now + up to a few years ago I would have been in the hopeless category.
I'm still considered "unwell" in that I still have symptoms+ sometimes get distressed but generally I am happy with a simple, low stress life.

It's the thought that the staff I have worked with + who I have built trust with are privately considering whether I would be a good candidate for euthanasia disturbing. You obviously disagree with my opinion, so I will leave it there.

Btw I'm not "playing" the victim, I genuinely find your posts terrifying. I've been sectioned many times, and knowing that you may have been one of the nurses "helping" me is truly horrible.

I'll leave to make your final attempt to belittle and insult me

In some ways it feels wrong, but I have known many people who have died by suicide and I wonder if this kind of option would have offered them more dignity and the families less grief. I'm not sure we can judge unless we have been in the situation ourselves.

We are not developing in a way that is conducive to good mental health and legalising suicide would force change for the better, long term, imo.

Suicide was decriminalised in 1961.

It's a tough one but I wonder if the split opinions are due to ableism towards those with chronic mental health conditions. In the same way some physical conditions can't be cured and cause constant pain and distress, so can MH conditions.

The difficulty would be ensuring someone has capacity to make the decision, I'd have thought

Mental illness can be chronic and terminal. Not all mental illnesses can be managed or get better. I think it’s a good thing. Mental pain is still pain.

Most mh issues can be treated with pills and therapy . But some people are beyond help. And trapped in a world of misery and darkness. Every single day being tortured by evil thoughts and not a single ray of light. Euthanasia for them would be welcomed in with open arms.

And I think it should be an option.

But also when I think of euthanasia for the mentally ill, what comes to mind is a non verbal, 10yo with the mental capacity of a 2yo,that has fits and throws tantrums and can't ever be allone and needs 2:1 care 24/7 .

I read some people on here talking about their severely autistic kids that are causing nothing but suffering and can't go the the toilet themselves. Can't communicate, Cant be taken outside without severe meltdowns. Violence. The mums scared of their own kid. Those People have 0 qualify of life. And their parents /caretakers are jailed for life having to endure the mental illness from a child that brings 0% joy to their lives.

I would say that euthanasia would be the most human thing to do.

Pets are put down when they are sick and no longer can live a life worthy of living.
And this makes sense. And people aren't dogs. And I know that. But it makes sense to end life when it is no longer worth living or when it should end because they are alive. But they don't live!

I do think in some cases euthanasia is a dark blessing. And merciful

I too am extremely disturbed by @StressedToTheMaxxx responses especially as she (?) claims to be a mental health practitioner.

Ironically, I did actually agree with her first post up to a point, and felt she raised some valid points. But I also recognised that @MrsEdnaWelthorpe was responding from.
a place of vulnerability and the lived experience of feeling utterly under the control of mental health practitioners when sectioned (this can be a terrifying feeling). There were much kinder ways of clarifying her point than the downright hostility and aggression that @StressedToTheMaxxx displayed. Pretty terrifying that she has access to vulnerable patients.
To MrsEdnaWelthorpe I wish you well and want you to know that your life is worth living ❤️

@SparklyBlackKitten I think you're going a step too far because the children you're describing have no capacity to consent, nor are we as NT adults able to assess whether or not they have any quality of life. We can't get into their heads, they can't verbalise their feelings. You're several steps into eugenics here.

@MrsEdnaWelthorpe I just wanted to wish you well too. I hope you continue to feel well and you don't need to be sectioned again. Please don't let posters upset you. We don't know what job they really do in real life anyway. X

As a senior MH practitioner, I am so heartened by your story. Sounds like you have a good understanding of your illness and relapse triggers and have managed to create a stable life for yourself. I wish you a future where you stay well, and where you can access the right support if you become unwell.

Have you ever thought about becoming a peer coach? I work with some great ones and people with illnesses like yours are under-represented.

Well sadly I think this is a symptom of mental health difficulties being both misunderstood (seen through the lens of the medical model, rather than as a result of life experience and trauma) and under resourced world wide.

All my family members (parents/siblings) have / had severe mental health difficulties (severe and enduring schizophrenia for one, severe depression another and severe BPD/EUPD and substance use for the other close family member. More distant relatives all also have something or other). I would have loved them to have received proper care, but other than medication or a few token sessions of CBT not a lot has been available. This means that the family member with schizophrenia has been pretty much in a zombified state for 20 years. No quality of life. The one with EUPD and addiction has now died of old age physical health complications, but their life was a living nightmare (they believed).

The one with lifelong EUPD complications wanted to die for the whole of my life (over 40yrs). I can't tell you how much I was desperate to save them throughout my life. They are now dead but looking back, their difficulties never did get better. Would it have been better for them to have ended it all many years ago, when they first expressed this wish to die? Well, I've always thought no and there's another way. But, having watched her life of pain and that things never improves for them, I am more on the fence now. So much pain for them could have been avoided.

I would b v worried though that some people who already feel a burden but have no desire to end their life, might start to think they should end it. That would be a v real concern for one of my family members.

It's messy, but ultimately what we really need is not euthanasia, but better understanding of the causes of MH difficulties, less reliance on the medical model, less judgement in society, and much much more resource to help those currently suffering

I couldn't really care less if you're disturbed by my responses. I'm sick of people like @MrsEdnaWelthorpe thinking she speaks for everyone. I've suffered mental health issues in the past however I'm in no way arrogant enough to think that my own lived experience is the only experience and that what I wish to be the gold standard for my treatment is what I should impose on everyone else.

@MrsEdnaWelthorpe can't play the vulnerable person when she feels like it simply to not have anyone disagree with her. She claims that she is no longer unwell so she should be up for debate. She got quite hostile and rude towards my first post therefore I responded in kind. If she wants polite discourse, she'll receive it, absolutely. If you look at my first post, it was polite and considered. However she got extremely rude and personal in her response to my first post. That's fine - if she wants rudeness, she'll get it. She didn't like me responding to her in the same manner that she spoke to me hence the faux wide eyed victim card being played.

She seems much like a pro lifer in that they don't agree with a medical choice - abortion. Which is absolutely fine - don't get one for yourself. But don't aggressively force your opinions on everyone else and demand that others who need to consider using a pathway, don't get access to it. She has absolutely no right to state that the consideration of euthanasia should be off the table for everyone with mental health issues. I get just as angry at those who would like to deny euthanasia to everyone full stop, people with debilitating, painful, degenerative illnesses, thus forcing them to endure suffering. Selfish, selfish people and these peoples voices do affect the access to choices that other people have.

During my training, I witnessed many deaths and dealt with a number of dead bodies. i wish people would just stop with the 'dying with dignity' cliché. There is no such thing as dying with dignity. Dignity is a social nicety. When you die, you leave dignity at the door. Euthanasia is no more dignified then suicide. It may be less dignified because you may be deprived of the liberty to change your mind because you are deemed to lack capacity, rightly or wrongly. Infact, suicide is probably more dignified because you may have made your intentions clear just before you ended your life (sometimes crystal clear) and if it is due to misadventure then it is usually self-evident that you were still exploring.

You find it "terrifying" that someone can actually choose to listen to patients voices re euthanasia and consider their opinions worthy and valid? Instead of doing what you're doing, a blanket no to euthanasia and forcing people to suffer (people who may have the same diagnosis as you but who you don't have the first clue about how disabled they are by their own 'version' of the illness?) whether they like it or not? OK. I find that terrifying. I have no respect for your opinions here because you're choosing to close the door on a conversation that some people with mental illness may need to explore. And you did it in a very rude and insulting way (read my first post and your response).

Have a nice day.

You @StressedToTheMaxxx are a bully. I hope you get the help you need and find peace in your life.

Could not agree more.

No, I'm not a bully. As I said, I was perfectly polite and reasoned in my initial post. The other poster was the one who came on this thread and spoke to me like shit. I'm not being bullied or spoken to like shit because I have an opinion that someone doesn't agree with. I will stick up for myself and I will stick up for others, vulnerable people, who that poster would happily take away the choices of.

I agree.

As someone with a number of MH issues, this is absolutely terrifying and disgusting and Canada needs to sort itself the fuck out or basically be guilty of murdering people who can’t consent to this and who need urgent help. It feels like Canada is using euthanasia to get rid of anyone who is a bit troublesome or needs some time and help. I’d have had myself euthanised several times over in my life if I could have - every time I was just unwell and needed help and care and not to be killed. Fucking hell.

I find the moral and ethical arguments both for and against euthanasia fascinating, and for terminal and chronic conditions I'm for - but mental illness, how would they decide someone has capacity to make that decision?

I'm going to have a read about how it's managed in NL.

It’s literally giving me massive anxiety even thinking about this. It’s disgusting. It’s just so, so scary.

You fucking what 😂 are you seriously suggesting that nonverbal severely autistic children should be "put down"? Who are you to say they have no quality of life?!

Just because someone is mentally unwell it does not mean they do not have capacity to make decisions. People should be able to make decisions about their care and treatment, and choosing not to continue to endure something like schizophrenia would be a reasonable one as long as its made when the person has capacity. We should all have the right to end our own lives in the case of illness, why should people with mh issues be any different.

People with mental illness are different because “they” meaning doctors, family anyone around you, often cannot tell if you have capacity or not. You often can’t tell yourself if you’re in your right mind. And frankly, I’d rather that parity between mental & physical illness be reached in terms of knowledge and treatment before deciding that many mentally ill ones are beyond hope and need to be nudged into legal suicide.