To ask what you think your reading level might be?

[2023a]

I think lots of us have had the odd frustrating conversation on here, where the other person just hasn’t seemed to be able to grasp what we’re saying. Apparently, it’s very possible that the posters in question genuinely don’t understand.

A 2011 government survey of adult literacy skills found that 14.9% (or 1 in 7) of adults in England have literacy levels at or below Entry Level 3, which is equivalent to the literacy skills expected of a nine to 11-year-old.

More recently, in 2015, the OECD conducted its Survey of Adult Skills, known as PIAAC (Programme for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies). This survey found that 16.4% (or 1 in 6) of adults in England, and 17.4% (or 1 in 5) adults in Northern Ireland, have literacy levels at or below Level 1, which is considered to be 'very poor literacy skills'.

More info here, if you’re interested: literacytrust.org.uk/parents-and-families/adult-literacy/what-do-adult-literacy-levels-mean/

This would explain why the NHS uses terms on their website/111 like "tummy". What the heck is a tummy, exactly? The stomach (the actual organ)? The intestines? The general area? It's meant to be easy to understand, but I actually think it's more opaque.

Interesting read about how the NHS decided to use simple terms in their reading materials: https://digital.nhs.uk/blog/transformation-blog/2019/pee-and-poo-and-the-language-of-health

The “tappers and listeners” experiment always seems relevant to online miscommunication.

hbr.org/2006/12/the-curse-of-knowledge

Essentially, we find it hard to imagine not knowing the things we know, so assume a whole lot of common ground of understanding between ourselves and our readers that often isn’t there at all. Hence that experience of posting something you feel is obviously ironic only to have someone take it literally, or making a point that obviously addresses argument A only for someone to react as if you’re talking about argument B. And of course we’re all misunderstanding as much as we’re being misunderstood.

You can volunteer to help adults learn to read with this organisation: readeasy.org.uk/

@CatnaryReturns I think that's brilliant but I feel sad that I think it's brilliant. Not because people can't understand legalese, but because if things we're written plainly like this, which is after all the point of communication, life would just be easier for everyone. But I've come to the conclusion that writing in easy to understand English is just too hard for many qualified professionals. It requires that you really understand what you're saying rather than repeating oft used, pre-written, professional standard phrases.
A pp above said they had to dumb down their dissertation because the marker didn't understand it. I wouldn't argue with their experience. But I've found, when marking degree level material, it's often full of complex and yet strangely empty statements. It's a bit like the emperors new clothes. It sounds so complex it must be brilliant and it's just me that doesn't get it, so I'd best say nothing. But actually it's just impenetrable language that actually tells you very little.
I remember watching people on Judge Judy burbling on and JJ saying, "but what does that actually mean". And it was so clear that she was right. It gave me the confidence to start questioning the lack of transparency in language too.

@EffortlessDesmond most of my reading is casual, so mumsnet or news articles. I haven't read a novel in a decade or more, and it certainly wasn't a regular thing before that. I definitely wasn't a bookworm at any point in my life, and yet when I meet people I went to school with, they always say that they remember how good I was at English! My Dad bumped into my old A level English Literature teacher a few years ago. She said that in her career, I was one of the few students who stood out in her memory as being exceptional. To me this is crazy because I'm definitely not into reading at all, but I was just always able to explain what I understood about the book in a compelling way, I guess. I'm certainly not an exceptional reader. In fact, I was never in the top reading groups in Primary School.

I am Christian and read a passage of Scripture every day. When I do a Bible study with some ladies from my church, the teacher is always scribbling down my responses and making all the right noises, but I don't think I have any deeper a theological understanding of the text than anyone else in the group. I think I'm a thematic person and can pick up and express concepts easily which gives the impression that I'm a better reader/language speaker than I am.

Sorry, that was actually a serious amount of waffle!

Hear hear.

Oh my gosh, I'm the least efficient person and do what I call the 'simmering' approach, where I write about 10,000 words for a 4,000 word essay. Then I reduce and reduce like a rich jus, so that not a precious word is wasted and the essay is bursting with content!

I do this! It’s how we were taught to write at uni. Get it out, then make it good! The ability to edit is such a useful skill.

Very interesting link. Thanks for sharing.

I've got a 1st class BA and write regularly for Court. I don't know what level of reading that makes me. I QA work for others as part of my job role and it alarms me how many people struggle with sentence structure.

Other people I went to uni with just sat down and wrote the essay chronologically, starting at the beginning and continuing until the end until it was finished. Mine always started out as a monstrous mess before hours and hours of copying and pasting, deleting and rewriting. It just seemed so backwards and illogical but I had no other way of doing it! I waS single and childless at the time and had ample time to dedicate to the editing process...not sure how I would get on now!

I’m a Goldsmiths baby. We were all about the creativity. 😂

I write quite a lot for work and this is still my method. I have no idea how else to do it. 🤣

Yes, I just tip all of my research into one big skip (Microsoft Word, back in the day) and wade through it. How can you be sure you don't miss any gems if you just bash it out! It's a craft in itself!

We’re artists. 😁

That actually explains a lot!

Betraying my age, the option of editing and reworking undergrad essays was unavailable in the days before WordPerfect! All mine were written longhand, except the diss, and the departmental secretary had a useful side hustle typing those!

God I loved the word processor when it arrived on my desk. My typing is still sh1t.

That is interesting. I suspect it's evidence that prisoners are not stupid, but have had poor education for whatever reason. They are able to deal with money because they've learned that through experience.
In fact the vast majority of those in women's prisons are the victims of abuse who've turned to drugs and crime as a result - it's hardly surprising that passing English gsce hasn't been a high priority. If all these prisoners had a caring home with loving parents and loads of books around I'm sure they could mostly get their GCSEs.

Tummy means abdomen. If you have tummy pain you wouldn't necessarily know which organ is hurting. It wouldn't make much sense to talk about intestine or stomach in that context.

I don't think tummy is vague, it's just a commonly used term that everyone understands. Similarly you might say that your chest hurts, rather than your left lower lung lobe, or 6th intercostal muscle. You might have back pain and that could mean several different anatomical structures too.

Hopefully if the NHS is talking about a specific condition such as a stomach ulcer they wouldn't refer to it as a tummy ulcer - that would be confusing!

This is quite interesting. I learnt to read at about three and was always considered to be a good reader. We had a lot of books at home, and I can remember my siblings and I asked for encyclopaedias for our birthdays because we loved finding out about things (there was no Internet). Also, because I could read well, I was usually chosen as the 'narrator' for the nativity play (I always wanted to be Mary or and angel, but those roles went to the 'pretty' girls).

I was a shy child and bullied a little, so I sought sanctuary in the library at school. I read to escape some or the troubles of life. Eventually, I studied English language and literature and gained a PhD. When I think of a word or hear it, I 'see' it written in my mind's eye.

My sons were born in the digital age. They were both reluctant readers. They learn very effectively through multimodal resources. When they hear a word, they see pictures.

I should imagine my reading level is higher than my sons' reading level, but I am sure that is because I was brought up in the age of print.

I'm not sure how you would classify it now but at school I had an age of 12 when I was 6 etc. guess I've just caught up with my age?

I read very fast, drives DP mad 😂

Why is he bothered by reading speed?!

@caringcarer and @SnackSizeRaisin . I would disagree that it is the quality of teaching that fails the people who end up in prison. During my PGCE, in one rough area placement, it was not the teaching, it was the student attitude that sent kids down one path or the other. The gobby loud kids who refused to engage with education, and thought they could bully their way to success by aggression, were the ones the polis came to collect.

The gobby loud kids who refused to engage with education, and thought they could bully their way to success by aggression

Neither of those posters said it was down to the quality of teaching.

Also, I went to public school and our gobby loud kids are currently running the country. Life outcomes are absolutely down to background, home life and opportunity. Social capital is an extremely important (perhaps the most important) factor.

@EffortlessDesmond, I never said anything about quality of teaching. I just said very high number of prisoners and those in young offenders institutions have very poor reading and English skills. Also very high number can't understand 24 hour clocks and read railway timetables.

Interestingly, on the quality of teaching all the pedagogical research shows that teaching quality is the single biggest factor in educational attainment. Lots of people believe class size is the most important factor, but in fact children do better in big classes with an excellent teacher than in small classes with a poor teacher.

Of course, that's within schools. As @2023a rightly says there is a whole host of home life and societal factors which are vitally important too.