Should I not be walking a dog in season?

[Salamamca]

My 3 year old dog is in season. I have been walking her on road walks where we’re less likely to encounter off-lead dogs.

Yesterday there was a woman walking this GIANT dog on the other side of the road, it looked like a Newfoundland/St Bernard but with German shepherd colouring - I swear it was the biggest dog I’ve ever seen. Anyway I carried on walking and then this huge dog suddenly dragged its owner across the road to come to us (luckily, no cars on what is normally a pretty busy road), she couldn’t hold it back at all, he dragged her with ease. They get to us and it tried to sniff my dog and my dog snapped at it but we couldn’t get away, when we tried to carry on walking it just dragged it’s owner along with us. She said she couldn’t understand what was wrong with him as he’s never done this before so I told her mine was in season. She said “well why on earth are you out with her then?. In the end a bloke from across the road came and helped her hold her dog whilst we got away. (And even he was struggling!)

Its really shook me up. She will be in season for weeks, surely we’re not expected to not walk her for 3 weeks or more?? I’ve always walked her in the past with no issues.

No worries!

I think it's illegal to neuter dogs and cats in Sweden, unless for a medical reason. I wonder how they manage, though, with walking dogs in season and whether they have a lot of unwanted animals in shelters.

My dog is neutered so not sure why you're assuming I'd personally have this problem. Why isn't yours?

Even if you have a good reason for not neutering your dog it's highly irresponsible to leave it unattended outside while in season - bitches in season are also hormone-driven and just as likely to try and get over the fence to access a male dog as the male dog is to try get to them. You may think your garden is secure but you'd be amazed what a dog driven by this most powerful and fundamental of urges can suddenly jump, climb or wriggle through. It is the most basic fundamental responsibilty of owning an unneutered bitch to keep a close eye on it while its in season and you sound like you're absolutely failing at this, and worse don't even seem to understand why it's your responsibility.

They manage by taking care and responsibility, something apparently lost on many people on this thread.

I have an un-neutered male and if he does attempt to take off at speed I can hold him. I have, and in exactly the circumstances you describe. An owner should be in complete control of a dog at all times when on a public road.

The pup analogy is exactly the same, other than it didn't take a bitch in heat to pull this woman off her feet. She'll be at risk of being under a car sooner of later whatever the motivation of the dog.

Hi OP here are a load more responses on this for you: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4456773-To-walk-my-in-season-dog-Is-it-a-criminal-offence

I actually thought it was the same thread at first.

If an owner is pulled down by their dog while your dog is safe and secure in your garden, why do you think that would be your problem?

In that scenario, your dog would be safely contained on your property and so as an owner, you wouldn't be doing anything wrong. That's really not the same as choosing to walk your dog in an area you know is busy/well-populated with other dogs.

They do seem like sensible, responsible people. Makes me wonder if the people insisting it's always best to neuter dogs are actually wrong on this.

Rescues in this country are full to overflowing and healthy dogs are being put to sleep as a result. In these circumstances, it's extremely irresponsible to risk bringing accidental litters into the world, and as such it's more responsible to neuter, especially if you can't manage to take basic precautions when your bitch is in heat like many posters on this thread have demonstrated that they can't. Sweden has much less of a problem with unwanted dogs, and also much less of a problem with a lack of personal responsibility. However, there are also known health benefits to neutering your dogs, including the avoidance of certain cancers and infections in later life.

The idea that it's always to neuter dogs is generally pretty out-dated.

Cats are a bit different as a colony of un-neutered cats can potentially produce thousands of kittens over their lifetime.

Responsible owners of un-neutered dogs are not the reason rescues are over-flowing, though.

Rescues are over-flowing because of irresponsible owners who let their dogs roam, who breed them with a random dog down the road in order to flog the puppies on Gumtree for thousands of pounds. They're over-flowing because puppy farmers dump the bitches when they're done breeding them, and because they dump the puppies who aren't "perfect" and that can't be sold.

Dogs from good homes pretty much only ever end up rescue when their owners have become unwell (and can't care for them) or have passed away, and they rarely stay in rescue for long at all.

The issue with over-flowing rescues won't be solved by responsible dog owners fixing their dogs.

@Scaryfaces Yes, I see the point about controlling unwanted litters. I am just thinking that Sweden isn't known for poor animal welfare, so if there were health benefits they would make it strongly advised or mandatory. Why would they make it illegal, except for health conditions, I wonder? I admit I don't know anything about their situation, but I respect their culture as a relatively humane and enlightened one.

@mountainsunsets I expect Sweden has dog licences and stricter controls altogether. I do wonder about the health benefits aspect, I must say.

@gnilliwdog it's complicated because there are arguments both ways.

Neutering eliminates the risk of testicular and ovarian cancers, and reduces the risk of prostate cancers in males, so that's obviously a big plus in favour of neutering. But there are arguments coming forward that neutering (especially early neutering) increases the risk of osteosarcoma and other joint disorders in both male and female dogs - such as hip and elbow dysplasia, as it impacts the development of the joints.

There's also the temperament argument - sexual behaviours can be cured by neutering (humping, marking) but there's no guarantee of this. The removal of testosterone can, in some dogs, reduce aggression but in others it can increase reactivity as you're taking away the "brave" hormone and making the dog more scared and more likely to lash out through fear.

IMO it should be entirely the choice of the owner (along with the vet and any behaviourists or trainers involved). It shouldn't be any kind of legal requirement either way.

@mountainsunsets Thank you. I have heard about certain cancers being reduced but it does sound as if there is continued debate on pros and cons.

It's also illegal in Norway. Apparently they manage by being responsible owners. Maybe we're the ones in the UK who have it wrong to cut up animals without a valid medical reason. Or just too lazy to cope with the responsibility.

I've had boys neutered but my 13 yr old bitch is still in tact due to an issue she had when younger. We've always walked her sensibly and had no issues in 13 years. It can be done.

I work at a rehoming centre run by a large national animal welfare charity. You'd be amazed how many owners who would describe themselves as good responsible owners have accidental oops litters and come to us for help when they find they can't manage with the puppies or find homes for them all. And no, it's not the case dogs from "good homes" don't spend long in rescue, dogs get stuck in the rescue system for all sorts of reasons, including simply being a less desirable breed, colour or age. Plenty of perfectly healthy, nice dogs get put to sleep simply to free up space in the overcrowded system (not by my organisation but by others), or they are put to sleep by their owners because there's simply no rescue with space to take them. The situation is dire, it's always been bad but it's particularly bad at the moment, rescues are full to the brim and having to either euthanise just to create space or turn people away in droves.

So yes if you'll forgive the profanity, people should neuter their fucking dogs because accidents can happen even to the best of owners, and honestly chances are many owners who think they are the best aren't even half as perfect and flawless as they think they are.

I think they have only one dog shelter in Sweden where animals are rehomed. It's obviously possible, as you demonstrate, to leave an animal unneutered and prevent pregnancy. I think we should be looking at how Sweden and Norway manage pet ownership.

@mountainsunsets I house my dog in a popular dog walking area!

My point is that owners should always be able to control their dogs, if they can't control them they shouldn't have them.

So yes if you'll forgive the profanity, people should neuter their fucking dogs because accidents can happen even to the best of owners, and honestly chances are many owners who think they are the best aren't even half as perfect and flawless as they think they are.

Even when neutering would be detrimental to their health and/or temperament and therefore quality of life? Really?

Sorry, but that's bullshit.

@gnilliwdog I’ve no proof or facts to post but my friend who resides in Denmark tells me to at most people have their dogs pts around age 9/ when they start becoming old/need expensive veterinary treatment. Could this partly be why they have less dogs in rescues.

They should be able to control their dogs, I don't disagree, but that urge that both male AND female dogs have is huge. I've also known bitches to scale fences and jump out of windows to get to dogs when they're in season - it's not just owners of entire males who have this issue.

As long as your dog is secure on your property, you're doing nothing wrong. However, you have a responsibility to your bitch to keep them safe. You can argue "the male dog should be under control" all you like, but ultimately you are the one responsible for preventing pregnancy in your bitch.

It's one of the main reasons I got a male dog. I didn't want to deal with seasons, unwanted pregnancy, pyometra etc. If you choose a female then you need to take full responsibility for keeping her safe, and that includes not walking her in busy areas. Either keep her on your property while in season, or drive her somewhere secluded and walk her at 5am for a few weeks.

Oh, and to add:

I work at a rehoming centre run by a large national animal welfare charity. You'd be amazed how many owners who would describe themselves as good responsible owners have accidental oops litters and come to us for help when they find they can't manage with the puppies or find homes for them all.

Then they're not responsible owners, are they? You'll never encounter genuine, responsible owners as they're not the ones who'll ever need your help, because they control their dogs, spay/neuter as appropriate and take their dogs to appropriate training classes to make sure they're well-behaved in public etc.

And no, it's not the case dogs from "good homes" don't spend long in rescue, dogs get stuck in the rescue system for all sorts of reasons, including simply being a less desirable breed, colour or age. Plenty of perfectly healthy, nice dogs get put to sleep simply to free up space in the overcrowded system (not by my organisation but by others), or they are put to sleep by their owners because there's simply no rescue with space to take them. The situation is dire, it's always been bad but it's particularly bad at the moment, rescues are full to the brim and having to either euthanise just to create space or turn people away in droves.

I know all of that, but that's still not an argument to unnecessarily spay and neuter. Each case should be taken individually. Neutering can cause behavioural issues for many dogs and isn't a decision that should be taken lightly. A blanket law saying "all dogs must be neutered" would likely lead to an increase in behavioural issues as fearful, nervous dogs who need all the testosterone they can get would end up in a much worse position.

@gnilliwdog I agree. I'd be interested in knowing more about how they do it. Sometimes we do things because 'that's how we've always done them'. It's good occasionally to look with fresh eyes. I much prefer to try and find natural treatments for my dogs too rather than prescribed medicines that they've reacted badly to in the past. No different to a person with type two diabetes controlling their problem with their diet rather than taking a pill.

Yes, that could be a factor. I don't know the proportion of older dogs in shelters here. In this country we seem to have a lot of young dogs too that owners couldn't manage, @ScaryFaces Are there a lot of older dogs (+9) in shelters in the UK that may have medical problems? If you took away dogs over 9 would there still be a lot? Don't worry if too complicated to say.