To ask what a consultant surgeon typically earns in the UK?

[Pottedpalm]

Just that really;there are published pay scales but I don’t know how much ‘overtime’ is typical.
Also, if a consultant sets up
in private practice in addition to nhs work, is the sky the limit?

Why doesn't you just ask the person whose income you're trying to figure out? It's a bit, well, stalkerish behaviour trying to figure out someone's income to their nearest sessional fee. You'll never know. Get over it and concentrate on yourself.

I agree
I am also thankful the old school male surgeon profile is mostly on the way out as you just can’t behave like that anymore and specialties like my own are becoming more female dominated.

Why doesn't you just ask the person whose income you're trying to figure out?

I have to say I'm a little intrigued as to why the OP wants to know. From a private patient of view, the fees are transparent so I knew what i was paying when I picked my surgeon.

Unless you have a child choosing between becoming a surgeon or investment banker (more money in the latter!)

Maybe you should look up what is meant by ‘stalking’. You will see that asking a question in an
open forum does not qualify as stalking.
I could make up many reasons why I’m asking, and you would be none the wiser, as they would be made up.
Thanks to those who took the time to give sane replies; I’m better informed and I hope others have found it interesting too.

@hop321
Indeed the fees are transparent, but not how much of the fee actually goes to the consultant.

Politically motivated thread alert, set up by Tories who know they will soon be struggling with doctors over pay. Don't pretend otherwise.

🙄

Thanks - yes the teaching is a university gig afaik. He did get a CE award a few years ago, but I understood (perhaps wrongly) it was a one-off award for that year.

I also understand that oncologists are rare as rocking horse shit these days, so the NHS certainly gets its £££ out of him!

The pay scale is clear as day, 84k starting salary for full time (40 hours) job.

its very poor compared to consultants pay in Ireland as an example.

Maybe because we all pay their wages & the nhs is on its fucking arse?

@beachcitygirl the nhs being on its arse has absolutely nothing to do with the amounts surgeons earn. Consultants earn every dime they work and deserve more.

CE awards are basically forever. After a few years you have to prove you still deserve them.

The huge benefit used to be that they are pensionable but with the pension tax crisis, that is now a bit dubious.

My understanding is that some specialties (not just surgeons) are so rare that they can negotiate which point of the salary scale they start at.

I also understand that oncologists are rare as rocking horse shit these days, so the NHS certainly gets its £££ out of him!

That's interesting. I have two oncology consultants as friends but they only do private work now.

I must have misunderstood a previous post as I read it to mean that consultants have to work a minimum number of hours for the NHS before they can do private work, but then I see that the only obligation is to be registered. I also learned that there was more orthopaedic activity in private hospitals in 2021 than in NHS ones.. Covid in play of course.

@Pottedpalm i think that is correct if you want to combine the two, NHS and private. If you want to just opt out of NHS work like PP’s friends, you can. I imagine it’s quite rare to be 100% private in oncology, unless you practice in a v rarefied area (probably London). DH’s pp (not London) does pretty well, and take-up has massively increased post-Covid for obvious reasons, but there are swathes of the country with no private oncology at all.

Rarity of clinical oncologists relative to predicted number of cancer cases is sobering stuff. It’s really hard to fill posts even at DH’s excellent cancer centre, where they rely on retired consultants in some clinics - fuck knows how they get anyone to do it at DGH’s.

Programmed activity is split into DCC (direct clinical care) so things like a clinic, surgery etc usually patient interaction, and non DCC or SPA (supporting programmed activity) which is usually the more clerical admin side. And yes usually a PA is half a day, as is SPA but it can be reduced.
some people for example for every 1 clinic will do half an SPA admin, others (specialities differ) will do 1 spa to 1 clinic. Then there’s other responsibilities such as clinical lead, governance lead, educational supervisor, any work they might do for theBMA or unions, or teaching that they get PA for.

in medicine (I can’t remember much detail about surgery now) in my trust, average would be maybe 3 clinics a week, 3 SPA/admin sessions, some form of leadership/development role (such as respiratory lead, or Frailty Improvement programme lead likely 1 SPA each, educational supervisor (half a PA per junior doctor) on call commitment which varies trust to trust, ours at the moment is about 1 PA a week equivalent (but places vary how they pay this).

they all go through a tiger pjs job planning programme where every second is accounted for. This is signed off by department lead, then clinical director and I as manager for medicine, then it goes up to the Assistant Medical Director and the Assistant director of operations for final sign off. Then it goes to someone else senior in medical HR and the med director or their deputy for “job planning matching” where they make sure everything’s been done fair and equitable and right.
doctors are then rostered to these duties and expected to fulfill them.

long way of saying yes 1 PA is about half a day.

@Skiingwithgin you have reminded me of another bonus of being a locum - never having to do job planning!

The stress of going through every 15 minutes and arguing the toss about how many SPA you should have.

Now it's just 'please turn up and do some work, no you don't have to go to any tedious meetings' Utter bliss.

It's the hidden costs...

His medical indemnity will be around £50k earning that much.

His medical indemnity will be around £50k earning that much.

Ouch. A year?

A friend of mine is a Consultant Obstetrician/ Gynaecologist (part time NHS, part time private) and pays in excess of £100,000 for private indemnity.

Again, most doctors do no private work or a very small amount.
Those that do a lot of private work generally live or work in (or near) London as that is where the wealth is in the UK.
They will often work a lot of hours.
They will need to pay large amounts in indemnity and pay the wage of a private secretary.

A friend of mine is a Consultant Obstetrician/ Gynaecologist (part time NHS, part time private) and pays in excess of £100,000 for private indemnity

Per year? I knew indemnity cover would be expensive but I'd assumed around £10k a year.

O&G has one of the highest rates for indemnity because the payouts are potentially so high - if the doctor is found negligent during a pregnancy/delivery that results in a severely disabled baby, they are liable for costs for all that child's care needs for the rest of its life - which easily runs into millions. But yes, fees for private indemnity are high in all specialties, which means you have to do a fair amount of private work for it to be worthwhile.

Yes, per year. I don't know the exact figure and the conversation I had with her was around 4 or 5 years ago so it is probably even higher now!

DH is a consultant of many years standing. He does lots of research and teaches students - these sessions are part of his job planned PAs. Trusts in England are driving down the number of PAs slowly but surely to 10 (equivalent of a working week) but obviously on call etc means that most have time off in the week to do as they want or need. Many to their private work then. He never gives a patient his phone number-they would be phoning all the time!!!

Re-private work. Yes, the earning potential is high. But don’t forget, this puts them in the high earner tax bracket, so an extra £100k on top of their NHS salary, would see 50% going to the tax man, DH had to pay £15k for indemnity insurance (you need separate insurance to do PP work), then paying for room hire, secretary support, etc etc-the end result is not the amount you think it is.

and don’t get me started on the government coming for Drs pensions🤬

It’s no wonder we are losing staff abroad-one of DHs friends who went to the US to work has just bought a second home in Miami for $10,000,000!