To wonder why people pay so much attention to BMI, when waist to height ratio is a better indicator?

[WaisttoheightnotBMI]

Many scientists have said for years now that BMI is outdated - it shows how much you weigh but not where you carry most of that weight.

This is really important for women, because many women are pear-shaped. Carrying fat around your lower half means you're carrying a lot of subcutaneous fat, which can actually protect
your health from serious illnesses like heart disease compared to carrying a lot of visceral fat (around your stomach, which is dangerous as its near to your internal organs).

So you could have a higher BMI but a healthy waist to height ratio because your waist is small or average in proportion to your height.

Take this from Harvard www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-definition/abdominal-obesity/:
"The study found that even women at a “normal weight” BMI less than 25 were at a higher risk, if they were carrying more of that weight around their waist".

Also from Harvard www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/big-thighs-may-be-wise#:~:text=Researchers%20tracked%20the%20volunteers%20for,than%20those%20with%20thin%20thighs.

"Although the BMI provides a reasonably accurate reflection of body fat, it does not tell how that fat is distributed. Research shows that not all fat is created equal. In fact, fat plastered around the body's internal organs (visceral fat) is much more dangerous than fat layered beneath the skin (subcutaneous fat); that's why liposuction and "tummy tuck" operations may improve your profile but won't help your metabolism or your health".

I feel like people here frequently talk about BMI and judge how healthy someone is or isn't based on their BMI, when that's not even the most effective indicator - could we start considering waist to height ratio more now?

I don't think that's how people, especially on MN, see BMI though. They'll see someone with a BMI of, say 24.5, and say well you can lose 15kg/ 2.5 stone and still be a healthy weight so you should work on losing weight - when in reality, because of the distribution of fat they may already be very healthy, and losing another 15kg may not be of much help to them, not to mention very very hard to achieve.

I actually think you get the opposite on here - people who think because someone's BMI is 24.5 they don't need to lose weight, when sometimes that person would benefit from losing the 15 kg.

@WaisttoheightnotBMI I agree that fitness is really important. Though I'm curious, when you say you've been obese and unfit and obese and fit, did your fitness/more exercise during obesity not help you lose a bit more weight?

I was obese and busy, rushing about, going to the gym, keeping up with the family on holiday etc. I'd diet, but not successfully/long enough for the weight to stay off. It rarely impacted me or stopped me doing anything. It was a vanity issue, more than a health one.

Then I got Fibro which wiped me out. Spent a lot of time inactive. Could do very little, constant pain, exhaustion etc. At this point my obesity meant I didn't have the strength to move myself about with my suddenly weak muscles. I was afraid that no one could help me if I fell, because of my size. Afraid of being stuck in my armchair, stuck in the bath, stuck halfway up the stairs.
My size wasn't a problem while I was fit and active. It was suddenly a huge problem when I wasn't.

I started doing Tai Chi which built my strength back up. Lockdown really helped with stress, and let me do much more tai chi and more walking because Less stress=less Fibro pain.
Then I did SlimmingWorld, lost a lot of weight and kept doing Tai Chi and built up the walking. So I'm now lighter than I've been in 20 years. I'm still less fit than I was 5 years ago, though I'm working on it.

I'm a big framed, pear shaped person. I'd never be less than 10.5 stone. I'm still obese, but you can see my ribs at the back and my collar bones. I'm not working on weight loss at the moment. Just strength building and maintenance.

@DietrichandDiMaggio

I don't think that's how people, especially on MN, see BMI though. They'll see someone with a BMI of, say 24.5, and say well you can lose 15kg/ 2.5 stone and still be a healthy weight so you should work on losing weight - when in reality, because of the distribution of fat they may already be very healthy, and losing another 15kg may not be of much help to them, not to mention very very hard to achieve.

I actually think you get the opposite on here - people who think because someone's BMI is 24.5 they don't need to lose weight, when sometimes that person would benefit from losing the 15 kg.

How would you know they'd benefit from that though? The point is that BMI on its own is very weak, so we can't tell just from that. If your BMI is on the high end of normal but you already have a small waist and bust, there would be barely anything left on your top half if you lose 15kg. On the other hand, if your BMI is on the high end and you have an okay lower half but wide waist, you would benefit from losing more weight so that your waist becomes smaller.

[quote picklemewalnuts]**@WaisttoheightnotBMI* I agree that fitness is really important. Though I'm curious, when you say you've been obese and unfit and obese and fit, did your fitness/more exercise during obesity not help you lose a bit more weight?*

I was obese and busy, rushing about, going to the gym, keeping up with the family on holiday etc. I'd diet, but not successfully/long enough for the weight to stay off. It rarely impacted me or stopped me doing anything. It was a vanity issue, more than a health one.

Then I got Fibro which wiped me out. Spent a lot of time inactive. Could do very little, constant pain, exhaustion etc. At this point my obesity meant I didn't have the strength to move myself about with my suddenly weak muscles. I was afraid that no one could help me if I fell, because of my size. Afraid of being stuck in my armchair, stuck in the bath, stuck halfway up the stairs.
My size wasn't a problem while I was fit and active. It was suddenly a huge problem when I wasn't.

I started doing Tai Chi which built my strength back up. Lockdown really helped with stress, and let me do much more tai chi and more walking because Less stress=less Fibro pain.
Then I did SlimmingWorld, lost a lot of weight and kept doing Tai Chi and built up the walking. So I'm now lighter than I've been in 20 years. I'm still less fit than I was 5 years ago, though I'm working on it.

I'm a big framed, pear shaped person. I'd never be less than 10.5 stone. I'm still obese, but you can see my ribs at the back and my collar bones. I'm not working on weight loss at the moment. Just strength building and maintenance. [/quote]
Wow, good for you for really working on your strength and fitness - all the best with the rest of your journey!

I’m a muscly apple shape.
Could someone find a scale I’m not fucked on please??

@Somebodylikeyew

I’m a muscly apple shape. Could someone find a scale I’m not fucked on please??

Lol if you're muscular have you tried calculating your body fat? You can use this tool www.calculator.net/body-fat-calculator.html Even your waist to height ratio should be okay if you're muscular and so don't carry too much fat?

*If I lose more weight my legs and bum will get even smaller, but my boobs and stomach stay the same whether I’m this weight or 2 stone heavier .

I’d just be interested to know how I can lose weight JUST from my stomach, because if you know the answer you will literally be a millionaire and scientists will bow down to your knowledge*

This isn't strictly correct. No, you can't spot reduce fat however if you really do have low fat% on your legs and bum then as you lose more weight it will eventually go from your waist, because there isn't any fat anywhere else to lose.

In terms of your legs/bum then being "too skinny" well then you add in exercise that builds muscle mass.

I'm the "slimmest" I've been in over 20 years but I'm by no means the lightest. 6 years ago I was a stone lighter than I am now and I DID look gaunt..... but my waist and hips are several inches smaller NOW..... the rest of me is a lot leaner but has more muscle mass and I look so much healthier for it.

@fellrunner85

Doesn't really matter what the measurement is, you will still get people denying they're overweight. If it's not "oh, but rugby players" it'd be "oh, but I just carry more weight there." Either way, people will carry on insisting they look "gaunt" at below 10st or a size 12.

Yes, BMI isn't perfect, but on a population level, it's one of the many tools you can use. Funny how people saying "oh but what about pro athletes" are never pro athletes. And in fact most very muscular sportspeople would be well within a healthy BMI range anyway.

Exactly this, overweight people will come up with excuse after excuse.

BMI isn't perfect - but how many people are bodybuilders or rugby players?

For anyone that doesn't fit into the professional athlete category, BMI is useful enough to tell you when you should start to lose weight.

Anyone I know that is obese on the BMI scale or even overweight, looks overweight or obese so surely the measurement counts for something? People just want every excuse to bury their head in the sand and convince themselves their health is not at risk. It's a joke

@sometimespeopletakethepiss I already addressed that earlier in the thread. I said:

"It's true that the BMI and muscle point isn't relevant for most people, most of us aren't so muscular that it gives us an overweight BMI - that's why I didn't mention that weakness of BMI myself.
But surely the waist to height ratio still has this advantage - if you're very fit and muscular you won't have a big waist, so you'll still have a good waist to height ratio. So waist to height ratio accounts for muscle, your body shape and is more predictive of health like cardiovascular risk factors than BMI".

Also:
"I think where waist to height ratio is especially useful is showing that nuance - when you give the example of someone having a BMI over 30 being obese and needing to change, then yes that is extreme and most people wouldn't deny they'd need to lose weight at that point. But it's for people with middling or slightly high BMIs where actually, the waist to height ratio is more useful, it shows maybe you don't have to worry about much since your waist is small - fat accumulation near your vital organs is where the health issues really lie".

@FrangipaniBlue

*If I lose more weight my legs and bum will get even smaller, but my boobs and stomach stay the same whether I’m this weight or 2 stone heavier .

I’d just be interested to know how I can lose weight JUST from my stomach, because if you know the answer you will literally be a millionaire and scientists will bow down to your knowledge*

This isn't strictly correct. No, you can't spot reduce fat however if you really do have low fat% on your legs and bum then as you lose more weight it will eventually go from your waist, because there isn't any fat anywhere else to lose.

In terms of your legs/bum then being "too skinny" well then you add in exercise that builds muscle mass.

I'm the "slimmest" I've been in over 20 years but I'm by no means the lightest. 6 years ago I was a stone lighter than I am now and I DID look gaunt..... but my waist and hips are several inches smaller NOW..... the rest of me is a lot leaner but has more muscle mass and I look so much healthier for it.

Yes that's so true, at some point you will start to lose weight from your stomach even if you are an apple. Out of curiosity, how did you reach this stage of having a smaller waist and hips but you weigh more - is it because of your leanness?

I had an eating disorder as a teen - was 5'7 and under 8 stone and still my waist was 28/29 inches! It just doesn't seem to go smaller than that. I didn't have any fat on my belly at all. One of my DC's is exactly the same body shape and it's interesting to be able to see it. Completely straight up and down - very thin arms and legs. It is actually a pain buying trousers because anything that fits on the waist is baggy on the bum and thighs.

@lumpofcomfort

I had an eating disorder as a teen - was 5'7 and under 8 stone and still my waist was 28/29 inches! It just doesn't seem to go smaller than that. I didn't have any fat on my belly at all. One of my DC's is exactly the same body shape and it's interesting to be able to see it. Completely straight up and down - very thin arms and legs. It is actually a pain buying trousers because anything that fits on the waist is baggy on the bum and thighs.

I'm really sorry to hear about your eating disorder, hopefully you've recovered now? That is still a small waist measurement for your height - you would've been just about in the underweight to normal waist to height ratio category.

Thank you, fully well now though have always struggled to have a healthy mindset regarding eating. Still have no waist or hips even after DC.

Out of curiosity, how did you reach this stage of having a smaller waist and hips but you weigh more - is it because of your leanness?

Sorry @WaisttoheightnotBMI I've just seen this!

I've dropped my body fat by around 8% but increased muscle mass through doing more strength based exercise as well as cardio, whereas before I just did cardio stuff like running and HIIT spinning.

5lb of muscle is about a quarter of the size of 5lb fat so you can actually weigh the same but look slimmer.

My BMI in 24.1 so only just in the "healthy" range, but my body fat is 20% which is depending on where you look, is either at the bottom end of or even below what's classed as "healthy" for women.