10 Years and Nothing!!

[GreatBigHooAndToodaloo]

I don’t even know what my AIBU is. My head is spinning. I’ve name changed for this because it could be outing.

I’m furious. My DH has worked for the same man for 10 years. He is a highly skilled tradesman (engineer) His bastard boss refused to take him on as an employee even though he wears the uniform, drives a sign written vehicle, works set hours and doesn’t do any other private work. He is essentially an employee without any of the benefits. The bastard boss hides behind the CIS scheme so that he can get all the benefits of having an employee without the faff. My DH hasn’t had a single day of paid holiday or sick leave for nearly 10 years.

Bastard boss comes to the house after work on Friday and announces that he is closing the company and moving overseas in a weeks time. One week!

He has also made it clear that there will be no redundancy pay. He got the work vehicle evaluated and has said my DH can buy it from him. He showed the evaluation to my DH. He is refusing to give him any discount on it. Not a single penny. I’m furious and heartbroken. I don’t know what we’re going to do.

Does anyone have any advice? Is there anything we can actually do? Ten years of loyalty. Ten years!

[BasicDad]

Crap situation, but incredibly naïve at the same time. Please don't make the same mistake twice.

[GreatBigHooAndToodaloo]

Thank you all so so much for the excellent advice! I appreciate it so much and I am going to look into everything you have all suggested. I am still in shock but every client we have contacted so far has been incredibly supportive. From what I’ve read online, this is so common. The CIS scheme is seriously flawed and really should be looked at by the government. It is giving so many companies the green light to exploit people and what has happened to us seems pretty common. It’s awful.

@BoredZelda Yes. I said further up thread that it was very good money. It is all relative though and doesn’t mean we are wealthy. We live in an expensive suburb of London and my DH is the main breadwinner. We had a good amount of savings at the beginning of last year, but this cockwomble shut the company for months during Covid because him and his wife furloughed themselves and lived the life of Riley, while we ripped through our savings with extortionate rent, 2 children and a newborn baby to support.

[Ald1Alert2]

Your DH had a choice to find employment with paid holiday, sickness & other benefits

[HopeHappy]

OP has said that he's been paid on CIS which is a special regime for the construction industry. It recognises that work comes and goes, so rather than have employees that you have to hire and fire regularly as business varies, you take people on through the CIS scheme. It means the "employer" deducts tax from the payments made to the contractor, but the NIC is dealt with by the contractor themselves.

It's a perfectly valid and legal scheme for the Construction Industry and doesn't, unfortunately, require payment of annual leave or sick pay.

What I would suggest needs looking in to is whether the CIS scheme is the correct one to apply in the OP's DH's position.

You'd need to consider:

• is DH's work in the construction industry in the first instance; and
• what should his employment status have been.

If the OP's DH's work (she mentions he's an engineer, but not what sort) doesn't fall in to any of the categories for construction then it hasn't been applied correctly and he should have a claim for historical holiday pay and redundancy.

Even if he is genuinely a construction industry worker, an employing contractor still has to consider whether those working for them are employees or subcontractors and if OP's DH has worked for him exclusively for 10 years, then I'd say he has a significant claim for the historical holiday pay and redundancy.

HMRC would be very interested in going after him for employer's NIC costs too. Effectively 13.8% of your DH's annual salary (subject to the first £8-9k or so being free of NI). If your DH has been earning on average over £50k p.a. (as he's been excluded from SEISS), this means the company may have defrauded HMRC to the tune of some £55k!

This looks like a useful website - Tax Aid

Also Employed or Self-employed

As a PP has said though, if the boss is leaving the country, he may be difficult to reach. HMRC may, however, be able to allow a statutory redundancy claim which it then tries to recoup from the company.

If the boss trades through a limited company which he's now trying to close, it is worth informing HMRC now as they can object to the dissolution of the company.

[DameCelia]

I would be looking at a freezing order on the basis that he's planning to leave the jurisdiction, ahead of a claim.
As @HopeHappy says *"
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Today 11:25PeoplePleasingWayTooMuch

I would definitely get advice from Citizen's Advice - he might be due backdated pay of holiday pay.

I'm a freelance and quite often if I've been working for the same company coming up for a year, they will not renew my contract to make sure I have at least a two week break as I believe if you are working for the same company for longer than one year you automatically count as employed in the eyes of the law (even if your contract says otherwise).

Sorry can't help with specifics but DEFINITELY get advice and definitely fight the unscrupulous bastard!! Ideally asap (today) if he's moving overseas in case you need to do something before he goes...
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Today 11:58BasicDad

Crap situation, but incredibly naïve at the same time. Please don't make the same mistake twice.
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Today 12:17GreatBigHooAndToodaloo

Thank you all so so much for the excellent advice! I appreciate it so much and I am going to look into everything you have all suggested. I am still in shock but every client we have contacted so far has been incredibly supportive. From what I’ve read online, this is so common. The CIS scheme is seriously flawed and really should be looked at by the government. It is giving so many companies the green light to exploit people and what has happened to us seems pretty common. It’s awful.

@BoredZelda Yes. I said further up thread that it was very good money. It is all relative though and doesn’t mean we are wealthy. We live in an expensive suburb of London and my DH is the main breadwinner. We had a good amount of savings at the beginning of last year, but this cockwomble shut the company for months during Covid because him and his wife furloughed themselves and lived the life of Riley, while we ripped through our savings with extortionate rent, 2 children and a newborn baby to support.
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Today 12:19Ald1Alert2

Your DH had a choice to find employment with paid holiday, sickness & other benefits
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Today 12:28HopeHappy

OP has said that he's been paid on CIS which is a special regime for the construction industry. It recognises that work comes and goes, so rather than have employees that you have to hire and fire regularly as business varies, you take people on through the CIS scheme. It means the "employer" deducts tax from the payments made to the contractor, but the NIC is dealt with by the contractor themselves.

It's a perfectly valid and legal scheme for the Construction Industry and doesn't, unfortunately, require payment of annual leave or sick pay.

What I would suggest needs looking in to is whether the CIS scheme is the correct one to apply in the OP's DH's position.

You'd need to consider:

• is DH's work in the construction industry in the first instance; and
• what should his employment status have been.

If the OP's DH's work (she mentions he's an engineer, but not what sort) doesn't fall in to any of the categories for construction then it hasn't been applied correctly and he should have a claim for historical holiday pay and redundancy.

Even if he is genuinely a construction industry worker, an employing contractor still has to consider whether those working for them are employees or subcontractors and if OP's DH has worked for him exclusively for 10 years, then I'd say he has a significant claim for the historical holiday pay and redundancy."*

[DameCelia]

Yep

Don't know what happened there.

I was trying to say I'd go for a freezing order as he is planning to leave the jurisdiction. On the basis of a pending claim, as @HopeHappy say: *"
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Today 11:25PeoplePleasingWayTooMuch

I would definitely get advice from Citizen's Advice - he might be due backdated pay of holiday pay.

I'm a freelance and quite often if I've been working for the same company coming up for a year, they will not renew my contract to make sure I have at least a two week break as I believe if you are working for the same company for longer than one year you automatically count as employed in the eyes of the law (even if your contract says otherwise).

Sorry can't help with specifics but DEFINITELY get advice and definitely fight the unscrupulous bastard!! Ideally asap (today) if he's moving overseas in case you need to do something before he goes...
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Even if he is genuinely a construction industry worker, an employing contractor still has to consider whether those working for them are employees or subcontractors and if OP's DH has worked for him exclusively for 10 years, then I'd say he has a significant claim for the historical holiday pay and redundancy.

[BoredZelda]

but this cockwomble shut the company for months during Covid because him and his wife furloughed themselves and lived the life of Riley

As a business owner, how did he furlough himself?

I guess it is all down to how people choose to decide to work and the risk / benefits that can bring when things aren't going so well.

[FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]

With the best will in the world OP, your DH also let this go on for 10 years without fighting for his right to be on the payroll system. Don't be surprised when people like the boss walk all over passive people who don't fight for what they want.

[queenMab99]

Difficult to tackle it before, too much to lose, so look on it as an opportunity, to get as much as possible from the situation. Don't waste time regretting 'should have dones'

[GreatBigHooAndToodaloo]

@BoredZelda him and his wife are directors on a salary

[GreatBigHooAndToodaloo]

@Ald1Alert2 and you had a choice not to be a dick and have a bit of compassion but here we are.

[GreatBigHooAndToodaloo]

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop A very hard lesson has been learned, that’s for sure!

[CoffeeBeansGalore]

Whilst his own business is building is there any ad hoc work he could sign up for? My dh did driving jobs to fill in gaps when he started up.
Make sure he has all relevant sector registrations up to date & listed in his own company name. Get public liability insurance (£5 million cover). Also get CRB/PVG (sorry not sure what covers London but basically the certificate that shows you don't have a criminal record).
If you have all this, insurance companies will be prepared to give him work. Companies that deal with home insurance covering boilers, plumbing, electrical etc go through the sector registration sites & use the fully compliant engineers to get the jobs done. Once they've used him & he has proved reliable they are likely to keep coming back. This will obviously take a while but laying the groundwork with the relevant paper work now would be wise.

[GreatBigHooAndToodaloo]

@queenMab99 You are absolutely right. Thank you for that ❤️

[GreatBigHooAndToodaloo]

@HopeHappy I can’t thank you enough! This is so so helpful. Thank you. He is a Gas Engineer so definitely falls within the construction industry category.

[BoredZelda]

him and his wife are directors on a salary

Seems the risk they calculated in terms of paying more tax over the years paid off for them in this case.

[GreatBigHooAndToodaloo]

@BoredZelda I’m not the mood to congratulate them for their excellent business acumen right now but yes, that’s right. They might be smart but they are still trash human beings. My DH is not the only one who has been let down. There are 4 staff members, all with families, that have just had their worlds turned upside down.

[QueenBee52]

OP I wish you and your DH the best of luck with this new business 🎉

[BoredZelda]

There are 4 staff members, all with families, that have just had their worlds turned upside down.

Yes, taking those risks does not always pay off.

[StrongLegs]

It sounds like an opportunity tbh. If the man is leaving then your DH can take over his client list and run the business himself. I would grab it.

[Waitrosedisaster]

HMRC would almost certainly consider your husband an employee, but considering he's been knowingly submitting tax returns (and presumably claiming expenses) for the past 10 years, I'd be very careful.

[Waitrosedisaster]

@GreatBigHooAndToodaloo

Thank you all so so much for the excellent advice! I appreciate it so much and I am going to look into everything you have all suggested. I am still in shock but every client we have contacted so far has been incredibly supportive. From what I’ve read online, this is so common. The CIS scheme is seriously flawed and really should be looked at by the government. It is giving so many companies the green light to exploit people and what has happened to us seems pretty common. It’s awful.

*@BoredZelda* Yes. I said further up thread that it was very good money. It is all relative though and doesn’t mean we are wealthy. We live in an expensive suburb of London and my DH is the main breadwinner. We had a good amount of savings at the beginning of last year, but this cockwomble shut the company for months during Covid because him and his wife furloughed themselves and lived the life of Riley, while we ripped through our savings with extortionate rent, 2 children and a newborn baby to support.

Also, if I'm understanding correctly, you allowed this to go on for 10 years because the money was good? So your husband deliberately submitted tax returns claiming expenses etc for a decade even though he knew he wasn't supposed to? You are considering reporting him now because the contractor/employer won't give them redundancy? I'm sorry but your husband was happy with his status as a subcontractor because it was financially beneficial for him. Whether it's right or wrong, he can't reap the rewards for doing something illegal and then sulk when him being a subcontractor means he doesn't get employee rights.

[GreatBigHooAndToodaloo]

@Waitrosedisaster Huh? How the hell has my husband done something illegal?! He was a CIS contractor. In 10 years he never claimed a single expense because everything was paid for by the company. Everything! He has paid his taxes and national insurance. He’s been a productive member of society and has done everything by the books. I have never once said I’m going to report the guy. I’m here to say the guy is an asshole and a shitty human being. I don’t know what you are going on about and clearly you don’t either. It was the company’s responsibility to register him as an employee, not the other way around. My husband has done NOTHING wrong.

[Oblomov21]

This happens all the time. I'm surprised you are shocked.

[Waitrosedisaster]

[quote GreatBigHooAndToodaloo]@Waitrosedisaster Huh? How the hell has my husband done something illegal?! He was a CIS contractor. In 10 years he never claimed a single expense because everything was paid for by the company. Everything! He has paid his taxes and national insurance. He’s been a productive member of society and has done everything by the books. I have never once said I’m going to report the guy. I’m here to say the guy is an asshole and a shitty human being. I don’t know what you are going on about and clearly you don’t either. It was the company’s responsibility to register him as an employee, not the other way around. My husband has done NOTHING wrong.[/quote]
Well has he only today realised he is a subcontractor, or has he been willingly submitting tax returns in the basis of being a subcontractor for ten years?