to be a bit miffed about my friends comments?

[Jaypreen]

Hi all. My 6 year old daughter's friend's mum and I are fairly good friends. We're both single mum's and we enjoy a good old chinwag with each other when the girls are together. She's nice, funny and friendly we share a few similar interests and are from fairly similar backgrounds - her and I. Today though she said something that I found a bit disturbing. Our two girls go to a catholic primary school where they get a bit of religious teaching. Nothing that could be considered fire and brimstone lectures or anything like that. It's very light, in that they do a short prayer three times a day learn about Jesus a bit, that sort of thing. My friend said in a rather mocking tone that her DD keeps coming home "with all this stuff about god and jesus" and "she keeps trying to convince me that god exists" and that "she gets all het up when I tell her I don't believe in god ". She told her [and these were her actual words] : " Look if you want me to believe in god then prove that god exists"! Her dd was disturbed according to my friend and she told her father all about it. He as a rather devout catholic was furious at her telling her this. My friend was actually rather proud of herself for being in her mind, the voice of critical thinking - or something like that. I tried not to react at all, but I have to confess - I was a bit disturbed and I'm not great at hiding my feelings.

I'm of Italian descent was brought up a rather strictly and I do believe in god. But I'm perfectly accepting and understanding of anyone who doesn't. I don't feel the need to convince anyone of what I believe and I'm not at all upset, shocked or perturbed that my friend doesn't believe, or is so anti. But I thought this was a very insensitive way to talk to this little girl, who through no fault of her own has found herself at a catholic school getting a 'Catholic education'. Surely there are better ways to break this information to her rather than being so blunt? How on earth can a child of six prove to her that god exists for goodness sake? Anyhow, the more I think of it, the more disturbed I am.

What do you think? Am I over reacting? x

[BiBabbles]

I strongly agree that it is inappropriate to push a 6-year-old to debate religion or any other choice of the parents or school. I think it's even worse if she's doing this as a get back to the child's father.

On the other hand, I do think it's okay to have boundaries with a 6 year old on certain topics and to discuss things that you disagree with that other adults, including teachers, say. I don't think she's handled that well if it's as the OP described and it may be that she's overblowing how much the child talks about it, but 6 year olds can get a bit obsessed with certain things and how right their teacher is, and I don't think it's wrong to say 'I understand you're enjoying this, but I'd rather not talk about that for a while' and redirect or even to give your different opinion.

I also don't think it's as confusing as people seem to think when the things at home don't line up with elsewhere. It can raise questions - when my DD1 was at rainbows when she was 6, she came asking why there was no mother or daughter in their end prayer - but I think 6 year olds can handle that people do and think differently, even if I don't think they should be pushed to debate that. For many children, that's going to happen no matter which school they go to.

Children should be agnostic and taught factual information.

Agnostic is to believe that people do not have the capacity to understand whether or not there is divinity in the universe, and that until we can evidence it in the same way we do other parts of life we claim to know, that it's wrong, potentially damaging, to make those claims. People who are religious or atheist clearly don't agree that people lack the capacity or that it's wrong to make a claim on it without that level of evidence, so I'm not sure they'd agree with teaching that as fact even if I agree with it.

[CecilyP]

Did you read my post before posting your diatribe? Or is it just too early for you to read and ansorbe things properly? Or maybe you're just a bit thick. I chose the school the basis of it being the best in my area. I put my child's education first.

Yes I did, and I think you are an absolute hypocrite! It is one thing not to believe in God; quite another to express your absolute contempt for other people’s religions. Even worse to send your kids to a school run by those for whom you feel that contempt. Don’t really care if you also believe it is the best school in the area.

[BogRollBOGOF]

The friend's tone is awful.
You can have gently critical conversations with children fairly young, "what do you think?" " some people believe this... some people believe that..."

My DCs go to a regular state school but have grown up with going to church. My 10 yo is now atheist, gives sensible reasons for his opinions/ beliefs and I don't expect him to believe the same as me, and view going to church as a cultural education, as it influences society's wider values and rituals. When he's old enough to leave at home, I'm happy to do that.

While CoE is often not a choice in rural areas, Catholic schools normally are a deliberate choice and it is particularly mean-minded to make that choice and then mock a child for the consequences of it.

As with a core of religious believers who believe that they are correct and superior to those of different beliefs, there is also a core of unpleasant, sanctimonious atheists who behave similarly, often with the added stench of hypocrisy as it tends to be a value they despise in theists yet display themselves.

[QuizzlyBear]

I deliberately didn't send my kids to a religious school because I wanted them to be taught to think, not taught WHAT to think.

It's a bit hypocritical of your friend to send her DD for a religious education, then undermine it though...

[Blackopal]

The fact you are so disturbed by this points to you not being as relaxed about other peoples non belief as you think.
I don't mean that unkindly but you list all the things you have in common and then seem shocked by this difference in approach.
I agree your friend was not very respectful of her child's thoughts on this but I don't think it's actually disturbing?

My children attend non denominational schools but still get taught about God and pray in assembly etc. They have both come home telling me about Jesus and God.
I have always approached religion saying some people believe this and others that, I tell my children to be respectful of others beliefs and to explore what they themselves believe.

When they ask me directly if I am Christian or believe in God, I am honest that I am not but they can have their own beliefs.

[CecilyP]

While CoE is often not a choice in rural areas, Catholic schools normally are a deliberate choice and it is particularly mean-minded to make that choice and then mock a child for the consequences of it.

I would agree with that. Id feel a bit uneasy about someone who was so pleased with herself for getting one over on a 6 year old. It could, of course, be due to animosity between her and the ex but there is no need to upset a child because of it.

[Mulberry974]

If she mocked and goaded her ex then that's up to them to deal with, but don't send your child to a religious school and then be dismissive and overly blunt to the child. Questioning things is healthy but this just sounds misdirected and unfair on a small child.

[Doghead]

@CecilyP

Did you read my post before posting your diatribe? Or is it just too early for you to read and ansorbe things properly? Or maybe you're just a bit thick. I chose the school the basis of it being the best in my area. I put my child's education first.

Yes I did, and I think you are an absolute hypocrite! It is one thing not to believe in God; quite another to express your absolute contempt for other people’s religions. Even worse to send your kids to a school run by those for whom you feel that contempt. Don’t really care if you also believe it is the best school in the area.

If I 'believe' it's the best school in the area?

😂

It was a choice between that and one other grotty school with extremely poor ofsted. I stand by my choice, no matter what some faceless prat on the Internet thinks 😁

[CecilyP]

You could have said it was simply the better of the only 2 schools available to you in the first place instead of choosing to be rude. Best in the area implied that there was rather more more choice than that.

[Jaypreen]

The dad is more of a church goer it's true. But the catholic school was also the girl's mother's first choice. It's not as if she was bullied into sending her daughter to it. There's a perfectly good state primary school, where a few of their little friends from nursery go, local to us that she could have gone to.

I'd be all for talking to the child about why she doesn't believe - but in this case the child is only six years old. Therefore the mother was horribly blunt and insensitive to tell her to "prove it" - in my view.

I'm not the slightest bit upset about "my views being challenged" Splicedbananas. I'm rock solid in my christian faith and it isn't about me as I've said. I'm disturbed that the little girl was hurt by what her mum said to her. Enough to tell her father a week or so later anyway. It's a conversation to be had when the child is a little bit older in my opinion. A bit older and a little more capable of handling an opposing view and the nuance of seeing god not as literal and not as a real person but in terms of the ethics and moral values that Christianity has given us.

[BiBabbles]

I agree that pushing a 6-year-old to prove it, essentially for child to debate the other parent and her school's point of view is inappropriate, but if the child is starting the conversation on these topics and is trying to convince the parent her teacher is right, then I don't think it's unreasonable for the parent to be age-appropriately honest of her own opinions on the matter.

It's pretty normal in a mixed belief household that even at a young age there is conversations about these sort of thing - even within the same, people can have very different interpretations, and this can come up. Her tactics, if as described, I don't agree with, but I also disagree that a 6 year old is too young to handle that there are different points of view on this. Plenty of children handle that the views of their parents are not represented much elsewhere without it disturbing them.

[Neonprint]

Yabu and massively over reacting. Tbh as a woman I have absolutely no understanding why women would do this to their daughters. The things the Catholic Church teaches about things like abortion and contraception are so anti women.

So she is more than entitled to bring a bit of critical thought to her kidwhy she's sending her to a Catholic school is baffling though. The stuff they teach in school certainly shouldn't be treated with kid gloves like it's sacred not to be questioned.

[CrumpetyTea]

I wonder if the school is being sensitive to the childs feelings- in telling her that people who don't believe in God go to hell- i think this would be more upsetting to a child with an atheist parent.
One of my biggest concerns about a religious education is that they "teach" children religious beliefs (as fact) when they are too young to question them- its awful. Children absorb stuff at this age (not just religion- look at all the evidence about gender/sexual stereotyping) and it has to be countered at the same time

[ZaraW]

It's a conversation to be had when the child is a little bit older in my opinion. A bit older and a little more capable of handling an opposing view and the nuance of seeing god not as literal and not as a real person but in terms of the ethics and moral values that Christianity has given us.

That will be an interesting conversation discussing the "ethics" and "moral values" of the RC Church. Why priests who abused children were allowed to get away with it, with the highest in the organisation turning a blind eye, their beliefs on contraception, why women cannot become priests, being gay is a sin, their extreme wealth yet so much poverty especially in developing countries where there is so much poverty where they are pedalling their beliefs in Asia and Africa to build up numbers. I'll stop there.

[FrozenVag]

It’s far better to introduce it as a choice not a doctrine and encourage critical thinking bit your friend is being disrespectful and aggressive about it.

This was lacking in my own catholic upbringing

I don’t outright tell my children that I don’t believe in god, but tell them what various people believe

They’re at a CofE school now which is quite light on the subject but previously were at the local catholic primary school where I felt that an hour if RE a day was a total waste of valuable learning time. This was why we moved.

[mustlovegin]

YANBU OP

This is wrong on so many levels

But the catholic school was also the girl's mother's first choice

^This. I find it increasingly irritating when parents are hypocritical and freeload the high quality of the Catholic education system but cannot have the decency to at least respect those beliefs

in this case the child is only six years old. Therefore the mother was horribly blunt and insensitive to tell her to "prove it" - in my view

^Also this. What was the mum trying to achieve? She could have caused real damage to the little girl's psyche presenting this cruel dichotomic 'challenge' at such a young age.

In my view, I would rather my children learned about mainstream religions than having to resort to false idols (celebrities, social media, politicians, cults) when presented with the myriad of challenges they will have to face in life as adults. I don't understand why some feel superior for being atheists either (it doesn't demonstrate a higher ability of critical thinking at all, if anything, perhaps the inability to think and keep an open mind).

It's also inappropriate that often the Catholic Church is fair game in a way that you don't see for other religions. All faiths deserve tolerance.

[ZaraW]

It's also inappropriate that often the Catholic Church is fair game in a way that you don't see for other religions. All faiths deserve tolerance.

Seriously? This is the religion I know the best as I was bought up in it. I will let someone from another faith defend or critisise their own as is their right. Are you Catholic?

[mustlovegin]

I dont believe in indoctrination children

Children are indoctrinated in many ways. Religion is the least of my worries frankly

[mustlovegin]

I will let someone from another faith defend or critisise their own as is their right

I would assume you are no longer a Catholic if you can speak in such an unnuanced manner about the RC Church?

[AryaStarkWolf]

@Bluntness100

Meh, I think it’s good for the girl to get both sides of it. She can grow up and make her own decisions and not be indoctrinated that this is the truth and it can’t be questioned.

I agree. I went to catholic school as did my kids, I live in Ireland most schools are still Catholic, you don't have loads of choice (it's getting better but I would still have had to travel outside where we lived to send mine to a non denominational school and I didn't want to do that because I wanted them to have local friends etc) I was always honest with them about not believing in god though and told them they should make up their own minds and not just take everything they hear in school as gospel (if you will pardon the pun)

[ZaraW]

@mustlovegin

I will let someone from another faith defend or critisise their own as is their right

I would assume you are no longer a Catholic if you can speak in such an unnuanced manner about the RC Church?

I could say exactly the same for you. Your defense of it is very weak.

[LookItsMeAgain]

I went to a Catholic primary and secondary school.
Why didn't you or someone who was having a discussion with this person who said "Prove that God exists" not turn around and say "Prove that he doesn't - you doubting Thomas you!".

Also, Catholic has a capital C here as we're talking about the Roman Catholic Church here. When capitalized, Catholic refers to the Catholic Church. With a lower-case "c," catholic means "universal" and "inclusive." If you listen to anything from hip-hop to Baroque, you have catholic taste in music. (I took that last bit from a definition on the internet and it's just to be respectful of those who have faith)

[AryaStarkWolf]

Why didn't you or someone who was having a discussion with this person who said "Prove that God exists" not turn around and say "Prove that he doesn't - you doubting Thomas you!".

How can you prove something doesn't exist? If I said I believe flying pink unicorns exist how could someone prove they don't?

[mustlovegin]

How can you prove something doesn't exist?

Well, in science you would keep an open mind about it, wouldn't you?

[ClarkeGriffin]

@Bluntness100

Meh, I think it’s good for the girl to get both sides of it. She can grow up and make her own decisions and not be indoctrinated that this is the truth and it can’t be questioned.

This. She was perhaps a bit too blunt about it, but you shouldn't be lying to your kids either.

I however wouldn't send my child there. That's not light what you describe, it's fairly heavy on them. It's not giving them a view of other religions, and although I don't have any belief, I think it's good for kids to learn about all religions equally. It promotes understanding of other people's beliefs and not just on one certain one.