To think that a Christmas Tree Festival in a church shouldn't include a Santa's Grotto?

[WendyWeber]

It just seems wrong...

Then again, I suppose Christmas trees don't really have much to do with church either...

link

Oh, OK. Thank you!

(NB I don't care either way - I'm just puzzled. Most events like this lean towards churchy music rather than sideshows)

What's a Christmas tree festival??? Lots of trees???? Do you live in Welwyn Garden City??? Lovely place!

Trees are pagan aren't they?

Local church M&T group has santa at their christmas party.You do have to sit through a short service before your child gets to see him though

Father Christmas/Santa Claus - is based on the 4th century "St. Nicholas" - so not entirely "unapt"

And Christmas trees are widely believed to have been introduced in the 8th century in Germany as a replacement for the pagan Odin's sacred oak (apparently they were hung upside down to start with to represent the trinity!)

Marmalade sales , cheese and wine parties, mince pies, guess the weight of the vicar at the fete and many other things the local church has invited me to don't have much to do with 'church', but have to do with human beings enjoying themselves in a wholesome and sociable way!

No, trees are German, aren't they, soupy? All Albert's fault?

3Dd, no, I live in Lancs (I have to look at "interesting" events in Hertfordshire for employment purposes)

I don't recall a spruce being part of the Christmas story though. Did the 4th not-quite-so-wise-man give one as a gift?

OTM, are those events usually held in the church building though? This is the first time I've ever heard of a Santa's grotto in a church, thassorl.

Yes - but it's never mentioned as that was what they hung him on approx 33yrs later

The Marmalade Sale, Cheese and Wine and Mince Pie events were in the church.

Guess the weight of the vicar was on the green - but it's possible that some people do spend the service guessing the weight of the vicar.

We call them Santa's grotty money-making enterprise. I am surprisingly reticent about being charged half a kidney to get a small parcel of generic tat and children terrified by 'the beardy man dressed up as Father Christmas'.

However, if a church wants to have a Christmas tree festival, a Santa's grotto doesn't seem at all out of place, no.

[bah humbug emoticon]

I don't mind a bit of pagan symbolism mixed in with orthodox religion.
Robust religion can take a bit of cultural context and celebration. Religious fundamentalism is always trying to control the parameters of these things. The people I've met with the strongest faith (strong imo) are never bothered about controlling others - they're bothered about leading a good life themselves and if that means they set a good example than great.
I just don't see that there's any theological argument that would support keeping Xianity in some sort of vacuum.

but where is the pagan symbolism when St. Nicholas was a Christian saint (genuine question - do other religion have Saints too - but with a different name???), and Christmas trees were introduced as an alternative to the Pagan oak??

Not that it really matters - only thing I'm worried about for this Christmas is whether I'll have a choir together by then or not

I do love saint Nicholas. Such a bolshy sort of character. My kind of Christian

Mixing pagan & Christian is fine by me (Christmas as a festival derives from winter solstice celebrations after all) - it's just the commercial tat aspect of a grotto in what I assume would be an attractive building that feels wrong.

It'll probably just be the verger in a white beard sitting on a big chair with a bit of holly round it I spose, rather than a moulded polystyrene monstrosity with flashing lights and elves...

This article here
is quite good.
This shows the very complex different threads that have led to our present Fr Christmas/Santa Claus. They're not only Christian ones. There's clearly an element of Odin.
Also Protestants traditionally dislike the Saints and all - not considered scriptural enough since the Reformation. Although I'm very happy with saints myself.
Also like this article says, Santa has become a symbol of a commercial Christmas to many people. Those Coca cola ads for example.

yes the timing of the Christmas co-incides with the winter solstice celebrations - but "Christ's Mass" - is most definitely Christian - just because the early Christians wanted to try and "cancel out" the pagan festivals by putting their own on at the same time doesn't mean that they're one and the same.

"Also Protestants traditionally dislike the Saints and all"

really - then why were so many Protestant churches named after Saints......and I'm not talking about ones that are 100's of years old.....I'm talking of more modern ones!

And last time I checked "All Saints Day" - was a part of the liturgy for the CoE too.......and has been for as long as I can remember.

QoQ, yes, but not all protestants are CofE by any stretch of the imagination. Anyway, the protestants that do have a 'problem' with saints tend to be skittish about praying to them, not remembering them.
'Saint' Nicholas was a bishop who stood up for some importnat aspects of the faith in the earliest centuries of it.

I dont think it is at all strange, anymore so than christian children receiving stockings and easter eggs.
Where my children are concerned as long as they understand what xmas is all about I don't mind them getting into the traditional spirit of things too.

Yes that was an over-simplification. But there is a very different approach to saints in RC and other Christian churches. I think the RC approach is warmer and more affectionate and maybe goes deeper in history. The Protestant approach is more about theology and respect.
It's just not my background so I find it to be one of the disadvantages of the Reformation!
I like the RC attitude while I would not defend any of the more ridiculous aspects like indulgences and relics etc.

But have churches introduced an Easter Bunny to hand out chocolate eggs on Easter Sunday?

by the way, I don't mean to offend anyone! I just like what I grew up with and I always have found the non Catholic world a little chillier. Of course there are enormous strengths outside the RCC and fantastic faults within the RCC but it's what I grew up with and I like the warmth and emotional engagement with symbols.
I find the approach of faith predominantly through scripture alone to be dry (and I have a theology degree and I remember a little about this stuff) and don't get me started on the Calvinists!
Each to his own! But grottos in church are fine with me! More symbols & more ease with life and being celebratory - less bossing people about! And that goes for the RCC too!
this is quite good too
This is only my opinion I don't expect anyone to agree it's just what I think.