WIBU to just teach DS how to do 'normal' division and multiplication?

[morninglive]

He is 7 and homeschooling via zoom. Teacher did some work where the kids had to use a model bar to multiply lengths of metres cm and mm, to make the larger length. as in - the house has storeys 4m 30cm and has 5 storeys. how tall is the house? As if multiplying and division in lengths isn't hard enough!

Instead of a straightforward multiplication in columns she did 4x5=20. 3x5-15. add them together and then some other shit. I just didnt understand it. Then a similar thing with division. Just gave the lengths of rope and said x 5 will give us the length of the uncut rope. Another example ...we have 350, halve it to get the two lengths of ribbon. But no explanation of how to halve that number. I think DS is very average so he couldn't even get started.

AIBU to say just teach in a secondary level way, but keep the numbers very simple. I am not talking long division here, or fractions of numbers (we also had those along with the metric shit) Yesterday was horrendous

@Babyiskickingmyribs

We use lots of Lego during maths too!

"Can anyone then explain how to do 350x5 using the correct method?

And 250 divided by 6 as an example of division?"

Were these really questions given to 7 year olds?

@rosy71

"Can anyone then explain how to do 350x5 using the correct method?

And 250 divided by 6 as an example of division?"

Were these really questions given to 7 year olds?

Yes. One of the last sums had a half remaining and because we had converted it all to cms, we needed to put the answer back into metres and the half into mms.

Tons of Lego so I'll look at those.

We did adding fractions today, which was miles easier!

I will stick to the teachers methods so as not to confuse him when schools go back.

I feel your pain OP. In my head I naturally do the ‘proper’ way too. Find the new ways really confusing and my year 3 child frequently doesn’t seem to understand them either. Maths has been the worst lesson to try to help her with. I have given up as I think, as PP have said, I will make things worse if I teach my ways.

rosy71, yep, I can confirm those types of questions are given routinely to 7 year olds. It’s horrific .

Instead of a straightforward multiplication in columns she did 4x5=20. 3x5-15. add them together and then some other shit. I just didnt understand it.

Thats gotta be a low point in life eh? When you're old enough for the metric system to still be a change but still can't understand a 7 year old home work

Imagine you had to do a large ish multiplication in your head. If you only knew how to do it one way using pen and paper, that would be very limiting.

How often does that happen to you in this day and age, no phone or calculator, no writing impliment but the important need to do large multiplication?

@Sapho47 about four times between 2.10pm and 3pm (or in the morning when it is repeated).

I bypassed all that modern teaching stuff, by teaching my DDs to add, subtract, multiply and divide before they started primary school. My old fashioned methods seem to have worked - DD got a maths degree from Durham and now works in risk analysis!

I agree that the Singapore method seems quite long winded but what I did with my eldest was make sure he understood the method taught at school but also showed him the shorter, older version of getting the same answer.
Whenever the question said to show the working out he would use the Singapore method otherwise not.

@FitterHappierMoreProductive
I agree completely as that's how I felt. The teacher did mention that he would get confused but maths was and still is his strong point so I knew he'd be fine. (He's now doing maths at college)

It’s a stepping stone to formal written method which will be taught in year 5/6. The reason is to develop understanding of the concepts before moving on to a process which is effectively just manipulation of number facts. If there is no understanding of the process, children can’t make reasonable estimates before starting a calculation and therefore won’t realise if the answer is wrong.
This about seeing the long term view, not quick rote learning.

@Sapho47

Instead of a straightforward multiplication in columns she did 4x5=20. 3x5-15. add them together and then some other shit. I just didnt understand it.

Thats gotta be a low point in life eh? When you're old enough for the metric system to still be a change but still can't understand a 7 year old home work

I can understand and work with the metric system, I just can't explain it to DS. I was taught in the metric system, but have had to learn some imperial measurements, as they are widely used still. I can also understand the home work and do it so simply in my head, but trying to teach DS something in a way I was never taught, is the issue. Maybe read the OP again?

Printed out the bar model thing, to stick on our learning wall.

Today we did fractions, and when I finally lost patience and shouted at DS he knuckled down and flew through the fractions, and completed the whole chapter. And used bar charts!

@morninglive
Sounds like the grid method. The whole point is that you partition larger numbers into manageable parts and use your place value knowledge to calculate.
We use this method and tbf it's only clear to see how it fits into the more formal methods when you see the steps in-between. I've added a picture so hopefully you can see how it works and fits into the method you know. It's especially useful when teaching to multiply by two digit numbers.
And can I be really pedantic and say it's calculation not sum. Sum is only addition

@WombatStewForTea. Thanks. I will do that in future. It does make sense and the stages flow. We are on the first one i think.

I think it’s also difficult with the home schooling. Trying to listen to what the teacher is saying on the laptop, kids interrupting to get the teachers attention, trying to explain to DS what the teacher means, and oversea the actual calculations and counter DSs (sometimes) unwillingness to work, is just challenging. DS can count up in multiples several of the tables and has a tables book for the rest and I sit with him most of the lessons.

I think my frustration is I can’t go through things with him without missing half of what the teacher says as it’s a live lesson.

@FitterHappierMoreProductive

I avoided just teaching my six year old the “proper” way - until I realised that’s the method she’s naturally doing in her head. So I just thought sod it, and got her doing it the HTU way like we did at school. I feel a bit bad for when she goes back to school, but expecting me to teach a method that seems so clunky, to a (bright) child who doesn’t get along with it, just seems to bloody pointless.

Children who have been taught the formal method early often go in to blindly use it without considering a better way. I’ve seen y6s solve things like 10,000-9999 in SATS papers using the formal method 🤦‍♀️ Because someone thought just teaching the formal method and ignoring all other methods was pointless.

@morninglive

I think my frustration is I can’t go through things with him without missing half of what the teacher says as it’s a live lesson.

Is it recorded? Ours are so pupils can go back and rewatch at the end if they need.

Check out white rose home learning. They have a video for each small step of the primary curriculum. I can see they’ve got measurement stuff up for y3, hopefully at least one of these will relate to what he’s been doing this week. Either he could watch the appropriate video, or you could to help you understand, then explain to him.

OP

I've done some GCSE maths teaching with FE students who got grades below 4/C.

I tell students there are at least 3 methods to do everything in maths, knowing different ways to do things means you can choose which is the most appropriate way for different situations.

I know the way maths is being taught seems 'clunky' but it does teach understanding of maths and that is a foundation for lots of logical processes eg computer programming or looking at your petrol gage and knowing how far you can go before you run out at different speeds or how many cakes you can make from one lot of batter.

Is this a year 4 power maths lesson? I remember teaching this exact lesson a few weeks ago.. 😂 I've seen lots of people have commented already and offered help but if you would like further explanation from someone who has taught the lesson I'm happy to explain some.

YANBU

I really don't understand the need to complicate the fuck out of basic maths.

Keep it simple, and easy to understand

I have a 9 year old who just doesn't get maths. I was the same. As soon as numbers are mentioned my mind just goes blurry and drifts away into a far away land. It was not for want of trying and extra help. It was a real block. Achieved well in other subjects. In the end I did achieve grade B in GCSE but it was purely through applying method not because I really understood maths.

Lockdown has shown my how behind my 9 year old is with maths. We have patiently worked through all the various 'new' methods like the grid method but I can tell it doesn't really aid her understanding. Maybe one day? In the meantime, I've taught her the 'old' methods so she has something to fall back on to get to the right answer.

Do you teach maths at secondary school?

There are lots of ways of tackling maths problems - and it does help some children, especially at the early stages to have either concrete examples or different written methods to understand a problem.

You could teach division by just showing the 'short division' bus stop method.

Do they understand what it means or do they just know a method?

Lockdown has shown my how behind my 9 year old is with maths. We have patiently worked through all the various 'new' methods like the grid method but I can tell it doesn't really aid her understanding. Maybe one day? In the meantime, I've taught her the 'old' methods so she has something to fall back on to get to the right answer

When you do 'the old ' method - you are still doing the grid method - just in a different way.

Knowing place value is so important.

25 x 8

You know 5 x 8 = 40
You know 2 x 5 = 16, so 20 x 5 = 160 (ten x bigger)

So you know that 25 x 8 is the same as 20 x 5 plus 8 x 5 = 200

I would argue that the grid method (or even bar model examples) can help demonstrate the link, and then help pupils gain an understanding

It then helps with estimation and also seeing how division works.

(And yes to 10,000 - 9995) doing using formal subtraction

Sounds like shes doing a method called partitioning, which you can look up.

Basically its splitting the number up into tens and hundrends.

So 400, and 30 (4 hundreds) and 30 (3 tens)

Then, figuring out how may 5s (storeys of the house) fit into each partitioned number (the tens and hundreds)

So 5s into 400 are 80. You can work this out, as there are 8 5s in 40.

There are 6 5s in 30.

So, altogether 80+6, =86