to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

my sisters used to be Baptists but they broke away or their church did.
they are no Assemblies of God.
For a long time my sisters played a very active role in running the church, but in recent years they have been marginalised (my observation not their complaint I should say) and they are not permitted to preach to the full church, although recently they are allowed to preach to children . their acceptance of these pronouncements can make me quite furious, as they are both intelligent, womderful women with a great deal to give, but apparently they are not fit for leadership because they have no penis between them.
I definitely know too much about churches I think.

harpsi what would we do without you?
Immediate response is and I don't want to say any more till sue responds.

oh and they used to be elders but I am pretty sure they aren't anymore.
they are allowed to clean the church though
I am not going to say anymore because this is the church I was brought up in and I know too much about the way it has been run over the years and of course it doesn't signify anything for any other church I am sure.
my local cofe parish (well group of parishes) are looking for a new vicar and they had an endless discussion about whether they would accept a female vicar. They agreed in the end but in reality not to do so would mean a much longer wait.
but it is still very much a live issue in the parishes. ironic really because the lay preachers etc are well over 50% women

Re-read harpsi and now see your sisters are Assemblies of God rather than Baptists, so don't expect Sue to respond re. that.

But still, Sue, Baptist Elders can be female, right? ... Right?

oh they are only recently AofG and maybe even entirely independent now. they were Baptists until very recently, say the last two or three years

ok harpsi you can count on me.

So harpsi there IS an 'issue' re female elders in the Baptist church?

nope, no female elders. At my church. Which of course says nothing about my personal views on the matter...

"Baptist" isn't a denomination like CofE, though onebat - it's just a loose label for people who believe in baptising people as adults rather than children.

There are many baptist churches with female elders, or even female main leaders, depending on the way they set things up.

Oh Sue you've lost me.

This, for me, is all about MORALITY.

We are all equal. Any institution which doesn't enforce this RELIGIOUSLY (ha!) has my contempt.

On a side-note, how do you personally live with that?

my church is a United Reformed church and has lady elders, no minister at present (like a lot of churches it seems) I know that they would happily accept a lady minister..

I find it really interesting to read how so many churches differ in their beliefs and running of the church.

I was brought up in this church, and don't really know anything else..

Except that we are in an parntership with a methodist which is too happy clappy for me and a COE which is too stiff...

I do enjoy reading your experiences though..

Sorry to be the first one to shake down this cuddly thing, guys.

I'll be honest, there's not much enforcing goes on at my church about anything.

They just happen to believe the trickier bits in the bible about leaders being male are relevant rather than having another explanation for those parts. I appreciate for some people that's about equality, but I'm not convinced that equality of worth neccessarily is the same as equality of opportunity.

If they were a bunch of raving 'shut-the-women-up' mad people, I very much doubt we'd be there, but they were a welcoming family to us when we were going through a very bad time and they're very good people who walk the talk. I agree with them about much, much more than I disagree with them about, so the elders thing doesn't really come up on my radar, I suppose.

My best friend is a female church leader of a different church, so I've not actually got a problem with women leaders at all. I've been one myself.

bcs they were nice to you when times were hard doesn't mean they're not loonies. 'just happen to..' doesn't cut it. Equality is about morality.

apol. 'loonies'. But probably would replace with 'baddies'. Too tired to do better than that, but I hope you get my drift.

Of course it is, but they're not forcing anything on anyone. If I had a desire to be an elder, it might irk me, but I don't, so it's a bit irrelevant really. And there's nothing to say it won't change in the future anyway.

"I'm not convinced that equality of worth neccessarily is the same as equality of opportunity."
??? too cross to type.

Of COURSE they're forcing this on lots of people!!
Lots of young girls in their congregation! Who respect their Elders, and breathe in the message, at every service.

You might be smart enough to dip in and out of this imo bizarre morality, but I doubt your young sisters are.

Honestly, too astonished and furious to continue.

This is, in my opinion, intellectual dishonesty.

Seriously? You think I should be jumping up and down demanding my right to be an elder?

Yes! demanding the RIGHT, if you wanted to! doesn't mean you HAVE to be one!
This is a CRAZY discussion to be having in this day and age!

OK to re-site the debate for those who missed the 20th century.
Blacks aren't allowed to be Elders, although we REALLY respect their opinions.

??>?>? what the ???

I'm sorry, I appreciate it's something you feel very strongly about.

I just think you pick your battles. And I sort of also think that Christianity isn't about me demanding rights.

Harpsi/Seeker you go to bed waay too early.