to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

UQD - yes, ikwym. It was also somewhat a revelation to me - after ceasing to be a believer - that a not-disimilar state could be achieved by singing along at a pop concert with a crowd waving hands in the air

I don't see any connection between love and supernatural phenomena either. I still love.

thing is, I often think life would be much easier if i didn't believe/entertain the idea of God and try [and fail dismally] to follow Christ. It is not all about feeling lovey dovey. The bible is full of passages where people rage at God, barter with God, turn their back on God, etc. 'Worship' for me is just singing beautiful sacred music, or feeling a great peace on a beautiful day, and trying to keep open to what might be my spiritual self. But I also rage at God, feel frustrated and angry, etc, because though God is so much more than I can perceive or imagine, of course I personalize Her/Him like everyone else does, so that I can kind of fit God into my brain and my world.

I have had what you could call an experience of the 'Holy Spirit' once when someone laid hands on me. I was totally unprepared for it, but it was a very real and deeply emotional experience that took me totally unawares. It sounds really poncey, but it was like a waterfall of light that poured in over my head into my, er, soul. Now, I am totally prepared to admit that might have been my imagination, but it was a hint of something I cannot quite shake off. And no drugs involved either.
And some extraordinary [yet very ordinary] people I have met who radiate something very good have also made me think there is something I don't quite understand going on.
[prepares to be told to go and commune with the fairies]

Yeah, I don't see the opposition between reason and love myself. I think they are a side by side thing, really.

and I absolutely hate that fake frenzied stuff Evangelicals whip themselves into. Nothing could be further from a point of stillness and revelation, IMO.

I too stand in the middle of hyper-emotional religious services in a state of embarrassed confusion. Well, not any more because I don't go to that sort of thing now. I've been pushed over in a state of 'spiritual' blah. I think it was just simple hypnotism. Not supernatural at all.

Can I ask the Christians on here if they think that a) Christianity has peaked yet or if it is still growing, b) if they think it will still be around in 3000 years, c)Why (not)? if yes, what makes it different from religious systems which have died out? Oh, and d) do you consider all other faiths and gods to be mere inventions of mankind?

My answers:

a) No - it's still got a way to go but will peak eventually
b) No
c) History teaches us that religions die out eventually
d) Yes, and so is this one.

a) the evidence says that it's still growing I think.

b) I chuffing hope it won't be around in 3000 years, because I'd rather like to be enjoying the new heavens and the new earth by then, but if not, then yes, I think so.

c)Well, my obvious answer is because I believe it is true, but the other answer would be that there are plenty of other faiths that have lasted a long time. Worshipping Zeus might be a minority reconstructionist practice now, but Jews have been worshipping Yahweh for a long time, and show no signs of not bothering anymore.

d)I think most religious practice is a response from a humanity searching for answers, so yes.

UD -
a] 'emerging church' groups are just well, emerging throughout the world, small, splinter groups loosely affiliated to the Anglican church but much more free thinking and questioning. I belong to one. I think the number of Christians will soon go down and the established churches die out but the smaller splinter groups will carry on.

b]Not sure if the planet will be here in 3000 years or at least in the form we know, the way we're carrying on. If it is then I believe there will be Christians. Not sure how many.

c] Christ was revolutionary because he translated spiritual matters into very real socio political matters. I do believe his message is the answer to many of humanity's problems. Not the way the church has interpreted his teachings,but his original teachings. No other religion has the revolutionizing power of compassion, unconditional love and social conscience at its core. However history teaches us these messages are too inconvenient to be followed.
d] All religions are human beings' struggle to make coherent the glimpses of spiritual life perceived and moral decisions to be made personally and socially. So they all have 'truths' in the lessons they teach. However, for reasons explained above, I believe, obviously that Christ's message is, whether divinely inspired or not, the one that could potentially save mankind.
[I feel so embarrassed being so bloody earnest]

Sue, your answer to (d) is interesting. I assume you just refer to the practices of religion. I go further and say that "god" itself is a human invention.

I'm not happy with the idea that this tiny grain of sand on the vast beach of the universe - which is what we are - has somehow had the ultimate answer to everything given to it, and that the belief system which we have evolved on this planet at this time happens to be the "right" one. I just don't buy it. For me it's far more likely that it's all made up. Which is why I think Christianity, and its god, will be a passing fad when seen in the context of the billions of years of the Earth.

Ruty, I may agree with you about (a). It will be interesting to see how the beliefs themselves change.

I actually agree that there is a lot to be said for the teachings of Jesus Christ, although I don't think he has a monopoly on them and I don't believe he is/was the son of a divinity as I don't believe in divinities.

How do those of us who manage without religion, do so? What do you think of us? Do you think we are simply not trying to make moral decisions coherent and make sense of life?

No, I think a lot of the 'gods' are inventions or distortions, too, not just the practices. Practices and beliefs are what make religions.

Your POV seems to rest on 'what are the chances of that?' I agree that we are but a teensy weensy little grain of sand in the Universe. But given that we're the only proven sentient life-forms, it would rather make sense that, if there was a Deity outside of creation, this is where the answer would come.

But, of course, we're coming at it from different angles - you see all religious belief as having evolved over time, I think some of it has, but that God has also revealed Himself to us, too.

How do those of us who manage without religion, do so? What do you think of us? Do you think we are simply not trying to make moral decisions coherent and make sense of life?

---------

You manage because you're a thinking person. There's a term in missiology called 'happy moral pagan', that is, someone who is quite content with the way things are in their life, they have no perceived need for religion and they have a basic moral code they adhere to, more or less, and they make their own sense out of the world. (apologies to actual religious Pagans, it's a clumsy term)

I think we all manage because we're made in the image of God and have a conscience. It's a bit of a mis-aligned compass, but it gets us by. It's my belief that our liberal society does very well with the judeo-christian framework (and I don't just mean being nice to one another, before Madamez jumps all over me), I mean the simple monogamy framework, and the care for children and concern for the poor and so on. When another framework begins to take precedence, which it may well do, I think things might start looking a little different.

Before I die, I'd love for another life form to visit us from another world - one with absolutely no concept of a divinity or religion at all...

Of course those who have no Faith are still trying to live by a moral code of conduct and make sense of life, etc.
I think it is difficult when people say Christ does not have a monopoly on the things he taught. But he was the first to teach them. I believe His teachings have undoubtedly influenced the way our society has evolved. Of course you can live a life that shares many of the things he taught without believing or wanting to follow him, but he was still absolutely revolutionary in his day. I actually like the idea that the three Wise Men were looking for the Dalai Lama, so they came and took Christ away to the East as a child [when his life is unaccounted for] and trained him in the ways of Buddhism. then he came back and fused the best of Judaism and Buddhism together with some orignal thinking about society, forgiveness and compassion, etc, and made, what I think, is in its purest form something amazing. [What it has become since then is far from it]

I don't believe/entertain the idea of God because I want to. I do it because sometimes the feeling is compelling, eg listening to a beautiful piece of sacred music, a beautiful piece of film, the interaction between two people, an experience of meditation. Equally sometimes I witness something that makes me doubt God's existence entirely. Therefor I do not judge people who do not believe at all. It is a very rocky, difficult and uncertain road to entertain the idea. We all do our best in a rather difficult world and that is all we can do.

who you'd like to visit us and who might are very different things UD.

sometimes I wonder if it is possible to have a very advanced form of alien intelligence devoid of all compassion, empathy and conscience. Would that be possible? i just don't know. Bloody well hope not.

Suebaroooo. I don't see the 'simple monogamy framework' as either much in evidence in the bible (think of Solomon's many wives and all the incest) - or as necessarily a good thing. Monogamy is at bottom about control and ownership of women. after all.

Ruty, if there were an alien life form devoid of compassion, empathy and conscience it would only be possible if it were the only one of its kind. Otherwise they'd all eat each other.

unless they didn't taste very nice....

justabout - do you have to pay fees to theological college? Sue them, if so!!

Have to answer door to small satanists and give them sweets now, but looking forward to reading through all these later.
I haven't actually spoken to a Christian in depth about their beliefs for at least 18 years, so this is ... interesting, definitely.

madamez, yes, I know you're not a fan of monogamy. Whether you agree with the concept or not, the simple judeo-christian (note the 'christian' addition there, which is where the monogamy thing comes into its own) has been a 'stabilizing' influence on society for a long time.

Now, whether or not it does that because it is inherently controlling or because of another reason, it has still given a certain structure to society. And people are still quite attached to the idea in the West.

You don't have to agree with the concept itself to see the scope of the influence of it. Other structures may well overtake it in due time. Society will probably look different when they do.

The good or bad of that is separate issue.

Sue "I mean the simple monogamy framework, and the care for children and concern for the poor and so on"
I must say I see no evidence for any of those principles being part of judaeochristian culture.
spare the rod and spoil the child
the appalling history of putting children's education in the hands of monks and nuns with brutal results.
the support/justification for slavery/feudalism.
the acceptance of social injustice and massive inequalities.
the appalling connivance in the subjugation and violence against women.
now I know along side those few random examples we could also cite the support of Christian groups for the abolition of African slave trade etc. and the work of individual Christians and Christian groups to alleviate poverty.
but I don't think by any stretch of the imagination one could describe the JudaeoChristian culture (whatever it amounts to) leads to social equality and happy lives for children.

you put your points across excellently justabout. And much less pompously than me.