to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

there is some quite intellectually able theology out there you know.

is there ruty?

Yes. Would you like me to refer you?

sorry ruty. just realied that sounded slightly more .. snidey.. than i'd meant. slightly

ruty, would it surprise you to know I am sending my dd1 to a CofE school I bet it would. she hasn't started yet, but I do spend quite a bit of time there so I have an idea of that school only. I shall wait and see.
of course every school is different. the only real experience I have is of my own schooling, which despite being in a secular school i.e. not CofE but "county" in those days, was very heavily Christian e.g. if you drop litter then you will go to hell .
I do think as a matte rof principle church schools are about indoctrination - every religion knows the effectiveness of shaping young minds. same as any ideology/idea - catch them young.
of course it isn't as simple as - you go to CofE school, you become a Xian. but it is the default position, and that is powerful.

by the way I have been thinking all morning about the things that I was told as a child and still do - really stupid illogical things that I can't get out of my head! will perhaps start a new thread...

and yes i did mean refer me. (as well as a small dig)
not sure i will have time to follow through properly but I am interested.

It wouldn't surprise me HC as the vast majority of parents who send their children to CoE schools are athiest.
We went to see two schoold today for Ds - one CofE, one RC. only schools in area are these two both I suppose, religious.
Now the photo of the pope in the corridor of the RC school really freaked me out, as did the rather creepy and sentimental statue of Jesus with a bleeding heart [why do the RCs have such bad art?] But the school was fab. Really caring, and really good atmosphere. I went to a RC convent primary school [they let me in because my mum taught there] . I loved it. Now I did go through an odd phase of having a luminous statue of the Virgin Mary on a cardboard box in my room and saying the Hail mary, but it hasn't lasted. And I still don't believe that I'm eating Christ's real flesh and blood at Holy Communion. so I can't say it indoctrinated me in the slightest. so I can't really see the problem.

although I can see the point that schools should be secular.

I would recommend Bonhoeffer as an interesting read Onebat. And Kenneth Leech's 'the Sky is Red' is more contemporary. there's some good feminist liberation theology out there too I'll have a think and post later if you like with a really long list.

Harpsi - I wouldn't have said the cross and crucifixion was an example of the benign elements of faith, lol. I meant the bits that most people, religious and non-religious, share.

I'd agree with Ruty, some of the most intelligent people I know do theology. I think of two in particular who were convinced about Christianity from a position of hard atheism (You might find them interesting, UQD).

ruty isn't surprised but i am harpsi!

onebatmother, I so didn't read that right - I thought you were outing yourself as Harpsi then. I think it's time for coffee...

well I will explain my reasons another time onebat
sue I am trying to respond to your OP - yuo wre asking about "threads complaining about this sort of thing" and I had in mind one a few weeks back when a child had a cross pressed into her hand by a complete stranger in the park (or it might have been a rosary?) and lots of people came on and said oh how shocking! and then lots of others came on and said oh don't be ridiculous it is completely benign and harmless.
tbh if you are not talking about that or about religious schools that dones't leave a lot of threads ime

If the vast majority of parents who send their children to CoE schools are atheist - and I see no reason to doubt that - it's probably because they don't have much choice, as the local village/suburb school which happens to be the most convenient in other ways is CoE.

I'd certainly be interested to talk to people who were converted from a position of hard atheism. I don't know any - all the Christians I know have been Christian for as long as I have known them. I know two who have (separately) gone the other way, though! They simply woke up one day and decided they no longer believed.

I imagine you can be intelligent and do theology, just as you can be intelligent and study literature without actually believing the texts you read are "true"!

I often wonder why people have a go at Dawkins for not having studied theology, though. I mean, if he had, he wouldn't have had time in his life to become such an eminent evolutionary biologist. (He's a bright chap, but there are only so many hours in the day!) What level of education/training in theology should one have before tackling the god question? You don't need a firm grounding in Greek mythology to know Zeus doesn't exist. You don't need to know precise details of scale depth, fire intensity and wingspan to venture with authority that dragons might be invented. Etc,

lol sue, but i would have written with more drama. i.... am Harpsi!

Oh yes, I recall the rosary one. Barmy. No, I really did mean the threads that complain of christian songs at M&T, or Christian charities and the like. And yes, while I don't agree with a certain religion being promoted in a secular school (and don't agree with 'religious' schools just for the purpose of hiving religious people off together and being state-funded) if a particular teacher makes a religious comment, I do think it's par for the course.

Mind you, the Christians I know who are teachers are quite firm that they aren't allowed to make an issue of their faith in an overt way, and they don't.

Well I certainly went through an athiest period UD. And my Father went through terrible doubts at periods in his life. Many people who are Christians [or Christian Agnostics] have real crisises of Faith at many points in their lives. Not everyone just believes it all hook line and sinker and never questions.

or bcs its a 'better' school UQD.
and absolutely agree that it would be genuinely interesting to talk to a convert from atheism - another thread?
all the theologists i've met have been agnostic.

and tho i love the idea of 'doing' theology - no, you don't need to be a theologist to answer the question do i believe in god. Nor (tho say this with slightly wobblier conviction) to answer the question does god exist. but only wobbly bcs am not logician or philosopher

logician?

justa tell me halloween is today not yesterday?

UQD, I think it's because Dawkins made some rather gauche arguments that assumed a certain level of simple stupidity among religious believers. Like no religious believer has ever grappled with 'the problem of evil' and so on.

He just didn't seem familiar with much of the work of religious believers who had already been looking at the issues he raised. So unfortunately it just came across like a lot of scattershot silliness. I just don't think he gave enough respect to those who are more studied in the topic, and when you do that, people tend to get their backs up.

Anyway, if you want, I can direct you to the blog of an atheist-turned-evangelical Christian (a real, live one!)

and if you believe God is a metaphor for the undefinable, the mysteries of the universe not yet explained, something akin to quantum physics if you like [which is what God is, it is just that everyone is desperate to pinpoint and reduce it] then of course doubt and hesitancy are par for the course.

Good grief, when I first joined MN I was smack dab in the middle of a deep depression and questioning whether God existed or not.

Wait a minute..does that mean MN made me religious again?

but the belief in god as a metaphor is surely a very very different thing from any organised religion, except perhaps Buddhism which isn't really a religion as such is it?
I mean, the Bible and biblical teaching certainly cannot be easily read metaphorically?

whatever the theological arguments, they have very little to do with the practice of religion at grass roots level and certainly nothing to do with what children are taught
e.g. we don't teach our children to sing
who made the grass grow?
who makes the sky blue?
he's a metaphor for the inexplicable in the universe

or am I being too literal

You have to ask yourself what would be lost if there were no faith schools - against what would be gained.

Those who wish to practise their faith would in no way be prevented from doing so, even if they felt a bit miffed. Those who are firmly opposed to religion would no longer need to have children exposed to it. (And those who aren't bothered wouldn't care one way or the other.)

It's like one of those 4-way logic grids:

---- RELIGIOUS-NON-RELIGIOUS

FAITH SCHOOLS ----|--

NO FAITH SCHOOLS --|----