to think that some non-religious parents over-react just a teensy-weensy bit when their children are exposed to religion in the most benign form?

[SueBarooeeooeeooooo]

s'ok if I am. But threads complaining about this sort of thing are a regular MN feature, and I can't help thinking that some parents seem tremendously precious about it. We're Christians and it often comes up that not everyone believes the way we do, and I talk to my children about it and they wander off and scribble on the lounge walls again.

I've seen people complaining about Christian mums and tots groups, simple 'thankyou' prayers and christian charities. I am 100% ok with you bringing your children up atheist, theist, or chocolate-worshipping. Honestly, if I whipped myself up into a panic over every mention of different beliefs or none that my children encounter, I'd never get anything done.

(Please note, this is not a church schools whinge, I'm against selection on religious grounds.)

I am not saying that there wouldn't be a protestant church in England if it wasn't for Henry VIII. I was responding to the idea that the UK is a 'Christian' country. I think the link between church and state can be traced back to political manoeuvreing rather than a shared ethical/religious stand point. Living in a suburb of London, I would definitely say that I come across atleast as many hindus, muslims and sikhs as I do Christians, so I wouldn't agree that we are a Christian country.

Having said that, would there have been a protestant church if Martin Luther's only avenue for spreading his faith was making children do hymn practice in a room smelling of feet?

mp
I do see the gap here between the reality of most churches in this country (I am talking about Xian churches I don't have personal experience of any other) with their lovely vicars and flower arrangng and church fetes and What a Friend We Have in Jesus

and this awful "religion" that we are so afraid of.

It is a matter of perspective. and these issues are not talked about in RL too much because of course no one wants to offend.
I do understand the deep meaning of the Cross to Xians and it isn a little harsh for me to tell Xians that to me it is an instrument of torture.

Oh, I completely disagree that the Christian part of our identity is a product of Henery and his wanderin' eye.

Christianity has been in the UK for centuries, and it was sort of subsumed into the celtic way of looking at things so I think it's much deeper than just bishops in the house of lords.

I don't think we're a Christian country in the sense of being full of believing Christians, but when you go outside the major cities, where it is admittedly very cosmopolitan, I think it's much less multi-cultural than those what lives in the cities assume.

Seeker, I'd also dispute that saying Christmas is ultimately about the cross is theologically unsound - from a Christian perspective, Christmas is about the physical incarnation of God who came to atone for His people on the cross. That's a fairly basic Christian message.

I do understand the deep meaning of the Cross to Xians and it isn a little harsh for me to tell Xians that to me it is an instrument of torture.

--------

What poor sheltered Christian doesn't know the cross is an instrument of torture?

It is a bit fast forward to the end though isn't Sue? doing the Cross thing at Christmas? I mean that is the Easter message, i always found the Christmas message of the new baby born into homelessness, a new hope, really comforting.

I think it is obviously the Church's fault that so many of you have misconceptions about Christianity. And that is why it will probably die out. The church that is, not Christianity.

I still find it hilarious that anyone would think a child would be affected long term by praying in assembly, etc. I mean a whole generation of athiests have been bred from these schools, so they are obviously doing a good job just not the one they were aiming for!

Not so much fast-foward, more thinking about what exactly is meant by 'new hope'. But I rather imagine it depends what you believe the message of Christianity to be.

I know what you mean about the effectiveness of morning assembly indoctrination

Where I live, in the country, Christianity with its feasts and festivals seems very natural. At Christmas we sit in a darkened church until the children light candles. At harvest we drive through fields of crops to harvest festivals. On Ascension Day people beat the bounds. At our Catholic church May involves special processions with flowers.

No doubt some of these are old pagan customs combined with CHristianity but it seems in harmony with what's going on in the natural world and gives my life a rhythm. I am glad my children have had this experience to see there's more to life than the material.

SO, just because some of you live in homogenous areas, are everyone's taxes to fund the peddling of one paticular brand of crap over others?

sorry Sue I didn't mean to be patronising of course Xians understand that the cross is an instrument of death and torture.
what I mean is out of respect for the Xian meaning of the symbol i.e. as a symbol of hope and salvation and sacrifice and indeed a symbol for the whole faith, it would be crass and insensitive of me to say I don't like this massive cross sitting in the reception area, or my child being given a cross or encourage to draw a cross for the same reason I wouldn't want her to be given a small gun or a gas chamber or a noose.
because (imo) it focuses on death and pain and suffering and human sacrifice in a way I think inappropriate. but obviously I try not to offend and demonstrate some understanding of Xian sensibilities.
that is an example of the "benign" cross being nothing of the sort. imo.

agree harpsi.
i can remember being terrified byt he nails through hands bit at about 5.
Horrific - wouldn't let dc's watch this on tv therefore why.. etc etc.

"I still find it hilarious that anyone would think a child would be affected long term by praying in assembly, etc. I mean a whole generation of athiests have been bred from these schools, so they are obviously doing a good job just not the one they were aiming for!"

well ruty that is pure nonsense if you don't mind me saying so .
of course what we are told when children influences us hugely - a whole generation of Christians and default Christians have been bred from these schools.

the ones who got away are the ones with authority issues/very very very bright minds... or both.

yes onebat, you ave to be brave to NOT bow your head for a prayer when hundreds of your peers are! Still true now as an adult.

Yes, some children grow up into atheists despute indoctrination - some don't escape! the fact that some people leave not believing the superstition/myth doesn't mean it's automatically OK to promote the superstition/myth in the first place.

precisely uqdad.
yes micro i always have a cowardly struggle at church weddings. is it adolescent and insulting to lovely bride and groom not to bow head? yes/no/yes/no oh god thank god it's over.
do you sing hymns???
Sorry this is a rather adolescent post actually. Never mind.

but have finally identified the exact angle of bow which satisfies conscience and social anxiety. About 20 degrees below horizontal.

one bat, no can't sing hymms anyway - they are ALWAYS in the wrong pitch for me. Think they must be aimed at little choir boys whose voices haven't broken.

My work always does a service at xmas for the companies kids, which I never take mine to (out of principle) but am going to this year as mine are feeling left out as father xmas gives out prezzies at the end

is that bad??? can't go to hell for it as don't believe

I will absolutely admit that despite very severe doubts as a child I went along with the whole Christianity for years and years, brownies, guides, church youth group the whole shebang. I found moving away from it agonising actually because for a long time it seemed to me I was the only person who had any doubts, that I was a total freak and letting Jesus down and that I would go to hell because I had heard the Good News and still hadn't taken Jesus into my heart.
there is still an element of that if I am honest.
and I was a very ahem spirited child and I still found it incredibly hard to move away from the accepted norm.
would you really say the same thing about another religion, oh well it doesn't matter if a child sits in a Muslim assembly or sings songs in praise of Buddha and or is told that Mithras created the universe by her teachers and her headteachers, not to worry she will just make up her own mind?

I agree that seasonal church events are part of the culture of Britain - and its probably a truism to say that their place in the year is usually linked to a festival pre-dating christianity. However, I find it difficult to understand how christianity is essentially british because I would have to ask which christianity? Do Welsh methodists and Scottish presbyterians and people who read the 'Left Behind' books share a common culture which isn't shared by secular jews?

madamez--you don't pay for our church. We pay for it ourselves. What possible harm is it doing you?

I sing hymns extremely gustily and with an air of archness perhaps not visible to the naked eye
I sing religious music all the time anyway so I have no problem with this.
I sometimes say the lord's prayer if not to do so would be a bit obvious not to, otherwise i don't pray

Harpsi, that's really sad, and utterly renews my determination. Hate 'letting jesus down' and will do best to ensure my children never feel that.

"madamez--you don't pay for our church. We pay for it ourselves. What possible harm is it doing you?"
do you? who paid for your church to be built? who owns the land on which it stands? who pays the Bishop's salary? who owns the house in which your vicar lives?

but harpsi re Lord's Prayer !
I sing - love group singing! (hypocrite, me?) - but no prayers for me.