Sorry, but £80k a year in London ^really is^ a large salary

[nickymanchester]

So I was just reading the "Unpopular Opinions" threads and I noticed more than one poster saying that £80k a year really isn't a lot of money in London or the SE.

What with being locked down again and not having much to do I thought I'd have a look at the actual figures as I had no idea which side of that argument is correct.

For full time workers who work in London, the median (average) pay is £39,500 (men £42,700, women £35,800).

If a person is earning £80k a year in London then they are on the 87th percentile. Although, if you're a woman that places you in the top 95%

(87th percentile means that you earn more than 87% of all people - ie you're in the top 13%).

Of course, areas of London are very different so I split London down as shown below.

The practical upshot is that, well, if you work in the City of London then I guess you could argue that £80k isn't necessarily a large salary.

You might even be able to get away with this if you work in Tower Hamlets. But elsewhere - not really.

.............................................75th.......Gender

Area......................Median...Prcnt......Pay Gap
City of London.....57,361....89,492....27.9%
Tower Hamlets.... 49,728....72,254....20.6%
Westminster.........43,597....64,038....15.7%
Southwark............41,948....59,816....11.4%
Camden................39,837....53,950....20.9%
Hammersmith......39,676....54,132....14.9%
Islington................39,312....59,587....8.1%
Lambeth...............37,866....55,458....15.3%
Hackney................36,748....46,540....9.4%
Waltham Forest....35,651....45,552....23.5%
Hillingdon.............35,183....52,390....5.5%
Lewisham.............34,913....46,608....-2.5%
Brent.....................34,866....48,064....8.5%
Hounslow.............34,809....50,528....5.2%
Richmond.............34,726....47,070....25.4%
Kensington...........34,445....47,242....4.4%
Croydon................34,086....45,146....18.8%
Havering...............33,821....46,249....-15.0%
Greenwich............33,181....45,427....6.0%
Kingston...............33,030....49,150....18.7%
Haringey...............32,812....44,840....-11.8%
Newham...............32,292....49,618....-1.8%
Sutton...................32,167....43,898....-2.4%
Wandsworth.........31,938....45,786....7.0%
Bromley................31,777....44,824....10.7%
Ealing....................31,418....45,001....-6.0%
Merton..................30,607....48,381....-11.0%
Barking.................30,482....39,988....13.5%
Redbridge.............30,306....45,157....-5.7%
Barnet...................30,092....47,362....9.3%
Enfield...................29,895....40,586....11.8%
Bexley....................28,174....39,614....11.3%
Harrow...................26,998....43,077....17.3%

And for comparison with people outside of London:-

London.................39,556....57,975
South East............31,647...44,704
Scotland...............30,820....41,855
East.......................29,895....41,449
North West...........29,099....40,820
West Midlands.....28,730....40,186
East Midlands......28,704....40,004
South West...........28,605....39,645
Yorkshire...............28,023....38,865
Wales....................27,966....38,392
Northern Ireland...27,487....37,903
North East............27,113....37,872

All figures are ONS latest 2020 figures extracted from NOMIS. Gender pay gap is for full time employees only.

Like I said, people come across very jealous.

A salary calculator allows you to make deductions for student loans and pensions which you clearly assumed neither of us had.

Yeah, we do get by. But we also have luxuries because we work hard for them. I’m not sorry for that but people on 20k seem to have this warped sense that people on 80k must be rolling in it, when they aren’t.

You haven’t even considered that someone on that salary may have to commute to central London with railcards (at least 6k a year without station parking) plus wraparound care for kids. In your fantasy world we all must be flushing 50s down the toilet for fun.

@Twobecomingthreeplusthedog confirms this is indeed a parody post

I find threads like this both fascinating and infuriating in equal measure.

We live in London, privately renting up to a year ago, combined household income around half of the discussed 80k until very recently, both our salaries have been way under the average mentioned by OP for the majority of our working lives. So yes, 80k is a large salary. It would still be a large income for us if combined.

We were able to save for a deposit without parents helping, buy a 2 bed flat with a good size garden 35 min by train to central, nice, safe location. Mortgage around 700pcm, which is way cheaper than when we were renting.

We have holidays abroad at least once or twice a year (not camping, not 5 star) plus the occasional weekend getaway. Clothes, shoes etc when needed, not "just because", going out occasionally but not weekly.

I get that everyone has different standards and expectations but saying it's not possible to save for a deposit while renting in London, or impossible to afford anything bigger than a one bed in London is simply not true. It's all about choices and trade-offs.

We don't have children yet. We have postponed it precisely to ensure we felt financially secure, but even if we were paying nursery fees we would still have almost 1k left after all expenses at the end of the month. Sure, we couldn't afford 2 children in nursery at the same time, so the trade-off for us is only having the number of children we can afford.

There are good 3/4 bed semis around here for less than 500k and you can still get a 3 bed terrace for 350/400k if you are not expecting newly built/renovated and don't mind redecorating.

I don't think you understand. I don't care about you, your lifestyle or how much you are paying out of your salary.

This thread is about how if you are on an £80k salary, then you earn more than 87% of the population in the capital of England, closing to 90% if you're a woman and even wider compared to the rest of the country. So therefore, it's a high salary. Arguing it isn't because you choose to invest and spend on whatever doesn't change that.

I can make lots of assumptions about your outgoings but I didn't because....I don't care? That's not the point?

Both of these things are true:

London housing costs are outlandish

80k is a materially very large salary

Also true: anyone who thinks "its all relative" is someone uncomfortable with acknowledging the reality of their privilege

@Ihatemyseleffordoingthis

Both of these things are true:

London housing costs are outlandish

80k is a materially very large salary

Also true: anyone who thinks "its all relative" is someone uncomfortable with acknowledging the reality of their privilege

Perfect.

I live in london on a training post degree wage and I'm on about a quarter of that, we pay for our place, travel, shopping, any extras like netflix and phone payments and were left with a bit of savings, Im in zone 3 though not zone 1

Uh actually you'd be hard pressed to send a kid to private school on £80k. After tax it's £55k, and private school fees range from £18,000 to £28,000 for a day student. So say £22,000. That leaves you with £33000, if you only have one child. I rent out a very small two bed flat in Fulham for £2000/month, assume a house would be much more, but say you are in a cheaper area so are still paying £2000 (or a mortgage). That's leaves you £11,000. From that you have to pay food, clothing, council tax, car, insurance, clothing etc etc. If you are a family that really isn't a lot.
Knock out the school fees and it is plenty, but you aren't going to be living in a big house or anything like.

@Pigtailsandall "^I was a mad equestrian as a kid. I mocked the stables and got to ride for free as a thank you. A bit if work won't hurt her, I promise.
And you know, just because she wants a horse doesn't mean you have to buy one...^"

Yes- absolutely, but Covid has made volunteering at her stable impossible, as they don't take on volunteers at the moment. With the new restrictions being as they are, the stable is open for livery only. Prior to Covid, my daughter was too young to volunteer, as the age minimum is 11 and she is only turning 11 in February.

Otherwise, absolutely great idea. Can't wait to get her off her iPad/phone and onto the fresh air and hard work of mucking out stables.

@Pipandmum

Uh actually you'd be hard pressed to send a kid to private school on £80k. After tax it's £55k, and private school fees range from £18,000 to £28,000 for a day student. So say £22,000. That leaves you with £33000, if you only have one child. I rent out a very small two bed flat in Fulham for £2000/month, assume a house would be much more, but say you are in a cheaper area so are still paying £2000 (or a mortgage). That's leaves you £11,000. From that you have to pay food, clothing, council tax, car, insurance, clothing etc etc. If you are a family that really isn't a lot. Knock out the school fees and it is plenty, but you aren't going to be living in a big house or anything like.

Yes but so what @Pipandmum? This thread isn't about private school. It's about how £80k pa salary puts you in the top 13% of earners in London.

Good salary but not large by any stretch.

It’s a good salary for sure but not large.
Taxes
Rent
Bloody travel card for me in zone 3/4 border is thousands
University loans
Most people I know on that salary and up unless you’re a coder are expected to dress professionally not designer but some quality
Also most people have as above astronomical student loans because they are likely to have at least a Master’s or more
Professional certifications
And of course if the person is single they may have a larger flat
And a bit more “disposable” income.
However a smart single woman on a good or larger salary saves like crazy both pension and available cash because of times like redundancy, COVID, etc etc. Her safety net is herself.
I just checked www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php and without any student loans after tax it’s £55,040.

So OP it’s good for sure but not large. Also if you’re interested a site called salary.com tells average wages for thousands of jobs in America. A newly qualified ward nurse here averages around £20,000. Even in rural America it’s about $45,000 and those nurses risk everything for our health. U.K. salaries are incredibly low.

Just to add that doesn’t include deductions for NI either

@nickymanchester so many people not even reading your whole OP

@Gothamgirl1970

Just to add that doesn’t include deductions for NI either

Yes it does

If it's 'good but not large' are you saying that being in the top 13% of earners in London (if male) or 5% (if female) that doesn't make it large? Regardless of outgoings, as this post is about single incomes and not family incomes and all the stuff that people pay out for?

@MustardMitt you’re correct that I did miss the statistical point of OP’s point so please forgive me if the purpose was to point out that females on £80,000 and above are in the top 5% of female earners.

I do feel though there is some statistically significant data points that should be included in the algorithm to make it more robust.

If it’s merely about percentile it is correct.

8OK is a excellent wage as single person , if you don't have kids or mortgage , live in a tiny one bed flat with good conation to the central of the city and convince of shops , drive a cheap car . can afford a lot things with that.

I know quite few families that live cramped over crowed properties are living hand to month every month worrying if they able to afford xmas and already owning some some doubt , debating which bill is more a priority , heating or eating . I know too many that on 60k jobs in London that they lost during this pandemic that now living on the breadline its thin line for them that just keeping them from being homeless , losing a job during a pandemic is not life style choice , the only jobs available are ones that are ones that don't cover the all the bills , let alone the bus or tube fare , despite working all hours in stressful jobs earning them the bare minimum.

Glad to see there are way more people now making sense on this post.

Some people can’t accept the difference between inherited privilege and earned privilege.

@FOJN

Council tax on its own is £200!!!

I'm interested to know why you've put so many exclamation marks after the £200, do you think this is more expensive than elsewhere? Nine out of ten of the cheapest places for council tax are in London. It's one of the few housing costs that is usually more expensive outside of London.

My mum's CT in the SW is just under £3k a year.

Where we are it's a bit cheaper but still around £200pm and to rent a 3bed you'd be looking at 1-1.5k pcm (our mortgage is £1200 pm for a very average house and we had an ok deposit) we're not even in the "naice" area of our city.

Isn't the point just that at that salary, it is a bit rich, and even a little offensive, to be saying it's barely doable when the vast majority are doing it on a lot less? If it's such a hardship how what do think of the situation of all the people working to make the city run?

If it's 'good but not large' are you saying that being in the top 13% of earners in London (if male) or 5% (if female) that doesn't make it large?

Is it % of earners or % of PAYE earners? I personally think that is where things get skewed as a lot of higher earners are not on PAYE.

@BluebellsAndBees

My maths may be wrong but did you have a very big deposit?

I'm assuming you are on 40k combined so your mortgage couldn't be more than 200k (700 pcm) & that seems high for lending criteria.

I used to earn more than that in London but I’m better off now as back then I was in a rental property and had a full time Nanny for dds (had to because of my hours at work). I also had high commuting costs.

I wasn’t poor then, but I wasn’t able to save either and family who were on low wages were not much worse off as they got benefit top ups for expensive rent, etc. So it’s easy to say that it’s not a big salary but the high cost of living (including childcare and transport essential to actually do such a job) in London means that it’s not all that.

A lot of posters keep talking about take home but I wouldn't say pension & student loans are things you can opt out of. I know teachers & police who have quite a chunk of pension deducted particularly if a higher earner however if you opt out you don't get any of the employee contributions. A teacher on 60k would have to contribute 11.3%, it's not insignificant.

I know many professional couples similar to your mix of jobs who afford houses in Zone 3, for example, with good state schools, but that you would probably consider not suitable.

That's interesting, how much are the houses?