To think we arent being real with our children?

[Just01]

We are constantly teach them to believe they can be what they want,have what they want,live the life they want,all it takes is work and a positive attitude!its bullshit.life is full of failure and disappointment,dissatisfaction and probably 90%of people just struggle and get by each day.if we keep telling kids oh just try hard yoi can achieve anything we are setting them up to fail,sometimes they cant get what they want no matter how hard they try or what they do.we need to be more real with our kids and tell them it's ok,that they can try and get the lives they want but it may not happen and the emphasis in life should be about being good and happy.

Good thread.
I was very bright at school and thought I was special. I’ve done well enough but have always felt that something was missing and that I never lived up to what I should have been.
I also know people at school who were potentially as bright as I was but who came from families who discouraged them from achieving anything. Some of them resent it, knowing they could have done a lot better given half a chance.
Good advice here on how to balance between the two - work hard but expect obstacles and learn how to deal with them. And beyond having enough money to live reasonably well, don’t forget what’s been shown to be important for happiness - creating something, doing things for others - not just pointlessly making lots of money.
Dd(9) is academically average and has struggled with reading. She works hard (because I make her) but she’s not at all competitive and doesn’t see herself as anything special. Her aim in life is to travel, live In a bungalow and have 5 children! Hopefully if she works hard she will live in a NICE bungalow! She is a sunny, cheerful little soul, far happier than I was and with many more friends. Long may it last!

See, I do feel like my life is a failure because I didn’t pursue my dreams. Which weren’t outlandish at all and entirely achievable. But I listened to people who told me I’d be completely useless at it.

So I tell my dc if they are prepared to put in the work and are committed them they can strive for anything and most importantly, it’s their lives!

I think that we're creating a generation of victims. We've told them that they can be who they want to be; they're inundated with shite like 'don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon'; they believe that they can have it all. Then it doesn't pan out that way and what do they do?
They blame.
Whether it's the baby boomers, Donald Trump, their teachers, their parents, the Tories, society in general, 'big business', the system, 'karma'......whatever it is, they will find someone or something to point the finger at. After all - it can't be their own shortcomings can it? Or simply bad luck. Not after everything they've been told about life.

I think the best we can do is boost aspiration; teach them that life isn't always fair; let them know that there will be setbacks and that pure luck plays a part. Teach them perseverance and resilience when things inevitably go wrong. And let them know that it is their life and they have responsibility for themselves.

I agree. This point of view is very prevalent in education. If you try hard enough, you can be anything you want to be. I think this leads to young people not really understanding how competitive the jobs market is.

@mrsBtheparker

Our children can be anything they want to be if they set their minds to it and actually put in the effort and work to get there.

If they're fed that philosophy is it any wonder that so many have mental health problems, it's total rubbish. My granddaughter wants to be an astronaut and while there have been female astronauts the reality is that she is unlikely to get there and luckily she is intelligent enough to understand that.
They need to have their ambitions but also to they need to understand the real world and temper their ambitions accordingly.

I don’t know how old your granddaughter is or how realistic or not it is, but being an astronaut is a valid career plan. ESA has a fantastic programme and lots of projects in the pipeline requiring crewed missions.

Also, looking into this career is what led me to astrophysics and astronomy, my PhD and a fantastic career. So although it sounds like a pie in the sky option it really isn’t. DM if you want more details and some really great role models to look up on Twitter.

Can you give me an example of social opportunities that would actually impact on your education?

I don't think it's as clear cut as that. It's more a case of, did you really need to spend every single night sitting at home swotting for the exam you'd probably have got an A in with half the work.

I do. It was a waste of time and didn’t get me any further forward. And I’m sure my neighbour does, given that he invested about ten years to get qualified to PhD level and nobody will hire him due to his autism.

But no one is going to pat you on the back and open the world to you for doing well at school or getting a doctorate -- they're steps on the way to other things, not terminal achievements, and you need to work smart alongside them.

In my field, a PhD is the absolute minimum required, and alongside that you will need high-quality research publications, teaching experience, evidence of significant contributions to the field of knowledge etc -- most people do at least one post-doc and several temporary contracts before they're even in line for a permanent job. A PhD in itself is not going to get you a job.

Coronawireless I can totally relate to this.

I think there's a generational element to this which isn't being taken into account. My dad was the first person in his family ever to go to university at a time (1950s) when tons of people from working class backgrounds were doing this for the first time. Society was opening up, the economy was booming and they had opportunities their parents could never have dreamed of. A good degree in those days marked you at and gave you the opportunity to more or less choose what you wanted to do with your life.

Fast forward 30 years and almost half of all young people go into tertiary education. A BA degree was very vanilla for a middle class person and in no way a sign of excellence. My parents used to drill into me that I should be able to achieve more because I had a "good degree". In fact I went into a work environment (in the mid 90s) swamped with other people like me, ie people with mediocre degrees. The balance has shifted.

Nowadays having a degree is baseline but in no way makes you special.

I don't blame them for not being able to anticipate the way the job market would develop, but I do think that in their obsession with the importance of getting a degree my parents missed a lot of other important elements of creating a good rounded educational backdrop. Including encouraging me to focus on what I really wanted to do with my life as opposed to blindly scrabbling onto the gravy train.

Hope is no more of a lie than despair, they're two sides of the same coin. The ideal is really to live in the moment rather than have either too bright or too dark a view of the future. And of course children have more to teach us about living in the moment than we can teach them.

Bit abstract, I know, but worth saying.

It's a balance. I definitely think in my generation we were puffed up and set up to fail, with actual lies about how the world is and what we could be in it. That's not helpful. I think a lot of people are damaged by that and feel like failures just for being ordinary. Or worse, when they get a run of bad luck are cruelly blamed for their own misfortune.

On the other hand lots of people never got any kind of messaging that they could be or do anything in the world and that's clearly worse. It fosters helplessness.

Life isn't fair. You don't always get out what you put in. We are not all playing at the same table and we don't all get the same hand. So it's really crucial to see clearly what cards you do hold, and understand what game you have entered into.

I definitely improved my life when I got better at understanding what I could do myself and what was out of my reach. I both over and under estimated my abilities for a long time. I didn't understand how hard it would be to get into the places where I could succeed and I didn't understand how easy it would be for me to do so once I got there. Talking honestly with children about what kinds of opportunities are likely to come up for them and how to recognise them when they do is probably the kindest thing you can do.

I was very bright at school and thought I was special. I’ve done well enough but have always felt that something was missing and that I never lived up to what I should have been.

I can identify with this. I was very academic at school and had the impression that was all that mattered for future success. I have a good professional career which I'm happy with, but I wouldn't say that I've excelled in life or achieved anything remarkable professionally.

In retrospect, I didn't know how to handle failure and could have benefited from building more resilience. I turned down a few opportunities because I secretly feared finding them difficult or failing.

I'm wondering what I'll try to do differently with my children. I guess encourage them to do things they find difficult and praise effort and progress, rather than just praising ability. I remember in the few subjects I didn't excel in at school (usually practical subjects) my parents said the subjects were pointless and not to bother with them!

I think you need to encourage them to make sensible choices. A degree is certainly not the be all. I would encourage subject choice / career potential that will more likely get a decent job, also a trade qualification is often better than a degree. Also I do think you are being pessimistic, I was a single mum of a baby, ex jailed for dv, no dps on either side, never got maintenance, worked full time plus did 2 post grads while caring for dc singlehandedly. The reason I didn't stop working was I had a mortgage to pay, if I rented I would have got hb and stopped or reduced my working hours but I would not be where I am now, so yes hard work often pays off but it is not the easy option at the time

Also - the emphasis in life should be about being good and happy - is a whole can of philosophical and psychological can of worms - but aiming to be happy can have the ill effect of making the inevitably times when we're unhappy feel like a fault as opposed to just another part of life. And aiming to be good is obviously a noble aim but also fraught with problems. Just look at the priesthood! I get what you mean of course, but it all boils down to there not being one right path and everyone really has to figure it out. Guess all we can do is teach our kids to question and find their own way and know that we love them whatever.

90% of people struggle to get by each day? I don't think so!

Most of the people I know live reasonably happy lives, have plenty of food, clothes, an adequate home, holidays and a family. Yes, most of them work very hard for what they have, but I don't think it's a struggle. Of course there can challenging periods in life- illness, loss, redundancy etc. There is a percentage of the population who are very poor and living below the breadline, but not nowhere near 90%.

I think there is a balance to be struck between encouraging them to aim high and aspire but also teaching resilience and how to respond positively to setbacks. Not easy but then nothing about raising kids is.

Out of the thousands of children I've taught over the years, there have been a massive range of abilities and a massive range of aspirations. Fine. But the vast majority only seem to equate "success" with fame or a high salary (or both). I'm working in a school at the moment where a lot of the students come from very religious backgrounds (evangelical, Pentecostal etc as opposed to the half arsed Catholicism I was brought up with or the woolly liberal Anglicanism sort which is what the school itself is) and there attitude to success is probably some of the healthiest I've come across as there seems to be a focus on living a "good" (Christian) life as opposed to just earning lots of money or having the most followers. I'm not in any way religious and disagree with a lot of what their churches say but it is very refreshing to hear a 15 year old say that money isn't the most important thing in life with absolute sincerity.

It fits the capitalist narrative, which relies on people striving to better themselves. We are encouraged to believe that we need more, that there is a ladder to climb. If we were all bred to feel satisfied then the motivation to work harder and strive more more would dissolve. This undermines the capitalist ethos. You are right to question the norm.

Well, OP, we can always tell our kids that they can achieve anything they want if they are ready to procure minors as sex-toys for the upper class, like some women in the orbit of Epstein did, and like, actually, Epstein himself did. (Looking at his resume the one thing that ecomended him for a steep career was his penchant for minors it seems and his willingness to put this to work for other, richer men).

So there's that.

I'm always telling teen-agers that is great to work towards their dreams but what's the back up plan?

So Billy wants to be a footballer. Fabulous. Work hard on your football, make sure you stay fit, etc. What's the backup plan for if you get injured and can't play? Make sure you're also working hard on your school work so you've got choices about that backup plan if it's needed.

Betty wants to be a vet. She's currently in set 4 for maths and English, and is unlikely to get any higher than grade 4s in her GCSEs. Ok Betty, work really hard, but it's very, very competitive to get into uni to be a vet. What else might you like to do that involves working with animals? What about vet nurse, or working in an animal refuge, or getting a job on a farm, etc?

Both of those children are fictional, but based on any number of kids I've taught. I agree with pp that the most difficult children to work with are the ones with no aspirations. They are the ones who are least likely to work hard at school and get the grades that give them choices about their future.

Obviously getting good grades at school doesn't automatically get you everything you want. But it does put you in the position that you are more likely to have choices about what you want/can do. A lot of jobs are blocked if you don't have grades 4 in English and maths. Quite a lot of jobs require some sort of degree. Some jobs require very specific degrees with post graduate study on top. So the better you can do at school, the more options you have in terms of future study and/or employment. That doesn't stop live circumstances happening to mess things up for you, though, that's bad luck, and can happen to anyone. Illness, traumatic experiences, bereavements, etc can mess up even the most well laid plans unfortunately.

I agree OP. With the best will in the world if you never were able to get past long division in school and just can’t wrap your head around the concepts of basic chemistry no matter how you try, you are not going to be a a doctor or a research scientist even if you really try hard. If you are 5’1, have short stumpy legs and no sense of rhythm you aren’t going to be a ballet dancer. The chances of being a premiere league footballer, an astronaut or the next Rihanna are also slight. When kids are very small I would never step on their dreams. They are likely to change by the day morphing from the next Rinaldo into a wing Walker and that’s fine. By the time they’re choosing options for GCEs it’s important they know their strengths, weaknesses and how much natural ability they have for a subject or skill. If it’s clear that it’s not about effort and their brains don’t work in that particular way too well, I’d not be encouraging them to think about medicine or sports teacher etc. They also need to know that plan b and plan c or a total change of plan is absolutely fine and that a routine job in lower or middle management or in retail or whatever is not a sign of failure and doesn’t guarantee you a life of abject misery.

I agree that saying you can achieve anything can be damaging, but not as damaging as saying "you'll never achieve anything."

Not everyone can achieve anything. I would never have made an artist however hard I worked; I am not artistic. Or a sportsman; I have the wrong physique, nor an actuary; I haven't the drive to work that hard. I enjoy sketching, I play tennis to a reasonable standard, I have a maths degree... I can enjoy these things, but I haven't got it to take it to the higher level.

Many people trying to be actors/actresses don't achieve it. I don't believe that those who achieve put in that extra effort, or, in a lot of cases (and definitely some exceptions there) don't have exceptional talent over those who don't succeed. It's often a matter of luck, and being in the right place at the right time.
Ditto sportspeople. Especially footballers. How many boys dream of playing for England?
I can think of one. I knew him from very young and all he talked about was football. He grew up, and trained 6+ times a week. When he wasn't training, he was down at the park practicing on his own.
Aged 10 he was quite put out to find a couple of local boys had been picked for young developer programmes for a prestigious club. He tried. He didn't succeed. He threw himself into practice. He was told that if he wanted it badly enough he'd get there...
He's now 18, and doesn't play football any more, but also doesn't want to try anything else because what's the point?

@bathorshower

I think there's a balance between 'you can be anything you want to be' and if you work hard you'll have more choices. I might have wanted to be an NBA basketball star, but I'm short and female, so that simply isn't possible, no matter how hard I train, and it would be kind to a child with that sort of impossible ambition to gently steer them elsewhere. But I do have more professional options having done well at school, and our lives are more comfortable because we're not in min wage jobs.

^ this.

It is important to be taught how to value the more basic positive things: health, family, good friendships etc. That should be embedded into a child’s upbringing.

But I do think the idea of aspiration is really important. That doesn’t have to mean becoming a hedge fund Titan or a piano virtuoso. It can be as basic as aspiring to conquer a lifelong fear of something or aspiring to make your house look as beautiful as it can.

Teaching children that they need application and resilience when they want to get anything done, whether it’s applying to university or tidying their bedroom, is really important.

I don’t think a fatalistic narrative that diminishes a child’s sense of his or her control over their environment is supportive of that. Better to have tried and failed, and to retain the motivation to try again, than to feel it’s pointless to try at all.

I will just try and talk to my kids when they are older and point them in direction of whatever they are interested it. My parents didn't really help me or inspire me with what I could do. They didn't fill me with confidence. If they had then I'd have pushed myself further when j left school.

My dream has always been to work in a hospital. Yet I've never done it. Because I never passed my driving test. I didn't know as a 16-17 year where to start. So I settled for shop work and pharmacy. Our hospital since then (15 years ago) has closed huge chunks of it down and shut the nursing school. My dream would be to work in a hospital on the maternity unit. Doing anything! But I know it's unrealistic. I have two young kids. The nearest place is an hour away. I cant drive. Can't afford to at the moment. I have awful periods and anemia and I'm always battling with fatigue. So I agree. You can't always get what you want.

But I think the more experience you give them they more inspiration they will get.

But yes you are right. There's not many who have it all and are well off. I know a couple of women who have the career. The kids. The nice house in a village. The dog. The marriage. But most people I know live in bog standard 3 bedroom semi detached homes. They do shop work, beautician work etc. Alot are stay at home mums or working part time around school hours. Most people don't have enough money for a holiday let alone to travel and all the rest.

But I guess it depends where you live. Confidence is key to happiness. But I do agree life works out better for some more than others. Even with looks. It shouldn't. But there's a reason the wealthy successful man has the beautiful leggy women on his arm that goes to the gym and looks great in rags.

If you work hard, you get good grades, you get a career, a good wage, a better standard of living.

I was constantly fed this message as a child. Yep, in the end I got good grades but I have never had a career or an amazing wage. One of the reasons for this was that I was abused emotionally (and sometimes physically as a child both at home and at school). These issues were never properly addressed. And all in all it ended up with me having a nervous break down.

Self worth/self esteem are equally important in my opinion. Of course, having good grades might open up more options but not necessarily. Having other attributes as mentioned above along with qualities such as tenacity and self belief can count just as much.

I worry about what sort of message is being drip fed to my teenager (via social media/the internet) who thinks that a glamourous life in some far flung country is out there waiting for them. Equally, I am all for them aiming for their dreams and doing what makes them happy (it might just work) but also being realistic and having a back up plan.