AIBU to resent others judging me?

[oxymomon]

People judge me. Every day. Some overtly make sly / passive aggressive / judgmental comments. Some don't but I can tell by their body language.

I'm different. I am in a senior position in a multinational company and am married without children. The two are unrelated facts. The reasons we don't have children are many and complex... I desperately wanted to be a mother but that wasn't my destiny. It's also nobodies business but ours so we don't discuss.

I've always been hard working and ambitious. I am judged as a female leader. I am labelled a "career woman" and judged for that. I am judged for having an opinion on topics like politics and the economy. And I am constantly judged for not being a Mum ... perhaps all the more so for daring to have a career AND not be a Mum.

I've been hit by too many slings and arrows and my defences are getting weak. The snide comments no longer bounce off me. They hit me. They hurt me. I feel like a punching bag. I resent the judgment of others. My lifestyle is different but is that a crime?

Do you judge married women who don't have children? Do you judge "career women" (a term I despise by the way)?

How about married men without children... do you hold them to the same standard? Do you judge them? How about "career men" (I know, it's not a term you ever hear used ... they're just men who happen to have a career) .. do you judge them?

AIBU to resent being judged? And how can I better deal with the constant judgment of others, of society?

[Macncheeseballs]

Surely everyone's judging everyone just a little bit all the time, that's what humans do, I wouldn't take any if it personally. I'm sure people judge me for all sorts of things. Cant really give a toss.

[oxymomon]

To be honest, most of the judgment about not being a Mom happens outside work. My husband's mother and brother make comments every opportunity they get. Just one of MANY examples: my BIL to his 12yo stepson (in front of me) when I invited them for lunch "... and... live in a 3 bed house but there's only 2 of them".

My MIL makes constant remarks, e.g while watching tv "Did you freeze your eggs?". Lots of comments like this all the time. We made it clear that our business is private and between us. Two weeks later: "I have an article of IVF I tore out of a magazine on the hairdressers for ye".

Both my MIL and BIL call me a "career woman" in a disparaging way.

On my side, my brother's wife has made a number of comments usually only woth drink on board. One example: "It's not a man's world. It's a man's and women without kid's world. The only women with senior roles in my office don't have kids". My response: "I've had to work really hard to get to where I am, are you saying I only got here because I don't have kids and not from my hard work and persistence?". Her: "Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying". So apparently any achievement I have is not really an achievement.

My sister said about an elderly family friend "The tragedy of her life is that she never had kids". To me. Maybe not directly relating to my circumstance, but still.

A number of my school friends have made pointed comments too, e.g. about my DH (who by the way didn't want kids and is relieved we weren't able to have any in the end): "It's such a shame you don't have children as would make such an amazing Dad". That was one of the most hurtful comments. Cut like a knife. She's my friend. Why wouldn't she say I'd make an amazing Mum at least. I felt she made underlying assumptions and blame. Also, not sure why she said it in first place as we weren't talking about kids.

The friends who are on my side still say things like "X (me) is so good with children" in a surprised tone or to explain to others that leaving me alone with their kids won't end in disaster. That feels pretty hurtful too: the assumption that because I don't have kids I wouldn't be good with them.

In a work context I do get less judgment for not being a Mom. The judgment I receive there is more related to criticising my leadership skills in a way they likely wouldn't if I were male. Though people do feel uncomfortable when they ask "Do you have kids?", which is a completely fair question and I have no problem with. The problem I have is their reaction to my answer ... from shocked silence to staring at the ground awkwardly, I've had it all. I found the answers "No, just my husband and I"; "No, I'm a family of two"; and "No" evoked silence and shock so now I say "No, but I'm very close to my niece and nephews" and I find that gives people something to grip onto ... it enables them to ask the usual follow on questions "what age, etc". A few years ago I always got "Oh, not yet" but now I am mid forties, I don't get that any more. Weird though that after "No, just my husband and I", nobody ever thinks to ask "Oh what does your husband do?". It's like they have this one follow up question about kids ready and if they can't use that, they don't know what to say.

At the Xmas party in December one colleague I don't know very well asked me straight out "Why don't you have kids?". That was fairly rude. I've never asked anybody "Why do you have kids?". I thought it was intrusive but I just smiled and said "these things are always complex" and left it at that.

And my situation is complex. I don't feel I should have to explain any more. But at some point we made a choice not to do round after round of IVF so in that regard, we are a mix of childless by circumstance and childless by choice. But that's nobodies business.

My MIL and BIL are the worst though. They make me feel utterly worthless with their constant comments (I've just scratched the surface). My husband is quiet and was bullied growing up by his older brother so he never says anything... he's conflict averse so he'd never say anything more than "that's private".

I live in Ireland. I think it's still different to the UK and other countries. My generation of friends and certainly my parents generation see a woman's place in society as one reason and one reason only.

[oxymomon]

To the lady who said that "all the women I know who are senior without kids are bitches" .... thank you! You have illustrated my point! That is a sweeping assumption. People hear my circumstances and make that assumption. If anything, I'm far too empathetic.

But to those of you accusing me of being paranoid and this being in my head ... read that comment ... it illustrates my point perfectly... People will make assumptions based on your circumstances rather than getting to know you

[oxymomon]

To the person who said "If you were married with kids in same position, would sky digs and comments not just be about how you must never see your children, how can you bare to work ft etc". Yes, I'm aware how working Mums also face unfair judgment. Many of my closest friends are working Mums giving their kids the most wonderful childhood. Not fair to judge

[alittlelower]

So stand up for yourself. People are making comments you find hurtful but you are never telling them. Call them bloody out on it. Just sitting there and taking it isn't really working for you. So change strategy.

[MiniatureHero]

I’m not sure why so many people are disbelieving you OP, as if they think we have suddenly woken up in a utopia of gender equality where women aren’t judged for having / not having children.

[dontdisturbmenow]

Some comments, (family and one of your friend), I feel are inconsiderate, but others I feel it you being too sensitive about the issue and making assumptions that might not have been the intention of the person.

The only women with senior roles in my office don't have kids"
I think you took this badly because of your issues. The fact remains that it is easier to dedicate more of your hard work to work when you don't have kids. You can work late, you can work weekends, you are much less likely to have sleep issues and certainly less knacketed., So yes, a hard working childless woman is more likely to have more senior roles than mothers. Why did you take this to mean she thought you were less hard working?

The part about you looking after kids, again, I think you've taken it out of context. Of course a woman who has less experience of looking after kids is more likely to going to be...less experienced. It's the same for everyhing. I wouldld more anxious to leave my puppy with someone who's never had a dog than someone who already has 5. It doesn't mean that I didn't think they could look after them well, more that I would need more reassurance that they have indeed enough experience to do so.

[OoohTheStatsDontLie]

YANBU to be pissed off at intrusive questions and being treated differently to how you would if you were male (and that includes questions about kids at work that men don't tend to be asked). Its nosey, inappropriate and unfair.

Yabu to not acknowledge that in general not having children does make it easier to concentrate on your career, for any decent parent man or woman. In my company which is actually fairly progressive most of the senior management are male and there are increasing numbers of women but the ones who progress fastest are those without children. In my wider industry it is broadly true that the senior females don't have children. This is not a dig at you at all, they are facts. And it's not to take away from your achievements at all as obviously you wouldn't have got where you are without talent and hard work. It's just some people may be rightly frustrated that other women have talent and work hard but due to childcare commitments can't go on a project in Europe with a weeks notice or pull an all nighter if something unexpected crops up or regularly be the first in and last out of the office, or go to impromptu office drinks. Again not a dig at you at all but some people are sick of the fact that presenteeism and flexibility still feature so heavily in assessment of employees and that for society in general, childcare responsibilities fall more heavily on women than men, and people would like to see change. Although saying anything to you about it is completely not the right way to make his change so YANBU to be pissed off about the comments, but might be unreasonable to not see where they are coming from even though it's nothing to do with you.

[oxymomon]

To the lady whose boss said in an interview "she's very good, but you know she'll just go and get pregnant don't you?". That is discriminatory behaviour and utterly unacceptable. When hiring, you select the best person for the job (that includes culture fit) and never comment on personal situation.

Equally, when it comes to promotions, they are based on merit. So I like to promote women on mat leave when that promotion is deserved. It makes me so mad when gender holds people back from opportunities.

That's the thing, I want to see more women achieve their dreams. I actively try to support, mentor and coach women to achieve their dreams.

Equally, I try to support women coming back into the corporate world after a career break.

Imagine a world where women support women and people support people. Less judgment, more support. We are all different but nobody has it easy

[Ullupullu]

Sounds like good old-fashioned sexism. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I'd spend less time with your DB/BIL though.

[DameFanny]

The patriarchy is alive and kicking and some of its misogynists are women

I had a female, childless boss who told me on a night out that she could never have put her child into childcare and go back to work (had a 3yo at the time). I judged her for being thick as mince for that and other events.

[HoHoHolyCow]

One of my best friends is married, has no children (early 40s) and at the top of her chosen career.

I gave up my successful career to be a SAHM and now work part time in a low paid but flexible job.

We've both had our share of judgey comments. People often see your choices as a direct attack on their own, different choices. So they get defensive.

Women are judged and criticized for having children, not having children, being a working parent, being a SHAM, working part time...

If you are happy with the decisions you have made then it should be fairly easy to ignore.

[missmouse101]

I wouldn't judge at all, I would admire you, if pressed for an answer. But mostly, people are just busy getting on with their own lives and really don't think as much as you fear about another person.

[Ragwort]

Your close relatives are being downright rude but I do think you are being over sensitive about some of the comments.

We live in a five bed house and there's only three of us, very, very occasionally I have had a similar comment but often that's in a (sneery) 'it's alright for you' type way from people I wouldn't really class as friends.

I also used to get the 'you'd be so good with children comments' (rarely) as we were married a long time without children (by choice), both DH and I used to do a lot of volunteering with children which made people automatically assume we had our own (best contraceptive ever ). I just laughed those sort of comments off.

[dontdisturbmenow]

But you seem to take offense in some cases that might not be warranted. Another probably more relevant comparison to how you feel about people saying you are good with children is if you had to chair a meeting and it was very important that someone took very good minutes of the meeting. Your PA calls in sick at the last minute, you call an agency, and they tell you they have someone to come at last minute, whose minutes taken experience has been to take notes for a school PTA meeting, but the agency says 'they've never taken notes of a large corporate meeting but they are very good'. Would this be offensive to that person?

Sometimes it's easy to hear anything that people say about a senstive and painful matter as a personally directed insult.

[corpsebrid3]

If people at work are making these comments and gossiping about you, it sounds like they have too much time on their hands. If you're their senior then I'm sure you can help them not be bored?!

Family members are going to want to understand why you don't have a family because for the vast majority of people having children has been an enriching experience and they will not want you to miss out on that.

Now of course it's your decision and you will know whether you would want to bring the stress of children into your lives and the reasons for that decision is private. The family may mistakenly believe that your career is so enjoyable that this is where you have focused all your attention. If they are stressed with children they might resent your lifestyle. But I guess these comments and questions are not going to go away until you decide how to box it off.

There are other Mumsnetters who can give you killer one liners to shut down comments. Repeat ad nauseam and they will give eventually.

Or have a frank discussion and let them know how distressing these comments are so please stop making them. Then if they continue and you choose to withdraw from them, they will know they have been part of that situation.

[RaceDayCrumbs]

I think you’re being overly sensitive and this stems from your own anxieties rather than anything else. People always have something to say, whatever you do. Rather than justify your position I think you need to be clear in your mind that it’s nobodies business.

[eaglejulesk]

I've never heard of anyone being judged for being married and not having children. I was in that position myself. I can't say I've heard of career women being judged either - are you sure this isn't just your imagination running riot. People really think about others a lot less than you seem to imagine.

[thesunwillout]

I've read the thread, and understand how it's made you feel.
Can I just ask, are you and your DH 100% on the same page with regards to your not trying IVF further. Forgive me if you've tried and decided not to go for the endless rounds because you just can't do that, for whatever reason.
My thinking was only related to you saying your DH doesn't want kids anyway.
With him being relieved.

[Rocksandstones]

I’m really shocked that so many posters are denying this could possibly happen or shocked that it does. What world do you live in? Sadly women are judged for anything they do ‘SAHM’ ‘working mum’ ‘career woman‘ (why does everything have a label!). Sorry this is happening OP, I would resent it too. In fact I do resent it, I was judged for having kids and not going back to work instantly, then for going back when I did. You can’t win. Where as my husband is ‘so hands on’ and ‘I’m so lucky’ if he does just 5% of childcare...
Anyway I digress, it sounds like you have worked hard for your career and you should be proud of that. And anyone who judges, fuck ‘em

[SerenDippitty]

I sympathise OP.

However you also get judged if you are married and childless but not particularly career minded. It’s like if you don’t/can’t have children you are expected to throw yourself into a career instead.

I’ve known tow female CEOs, one without children and one with.

[Billben]

Some don't but I can tell by their body language.

Could you be imagining some of it?

[dontdisturbmenow]

Sadly women are judged for anything they do
And so are men, and the elderly, and kids, and teenagers, foreigners...you just have to fit in a group to be judged, so.uktimstrly, there's unlikely not to be one person judged one way or the other.

The issue is it a personal offensive judgement or just someone expressing a view that in no way is intented to hurt the person's feelings.

[Butchyrestingface]

Do you judge married women who don't have children? Do you judge "career women" (a term I despise by the way)?

I believe you are getting judged, OP. But unfortunately if you weren’t getting judged for this, you’d be getting judged for something else. Such is the fate of women, even in our glorious, supposedly enlightened 21st century.

How do you respond to these remarks?

[Mixedandproud]

Some of the comments you have received are truly awful OP, it must be hard to take. Especially from so called friends.
I often do the same as you and have a quick fire answer ready aimed to make the person asking ‘have you got kids?’ and ‘why not?’ feel comfortable never mind they have made me feel uncomfortable with their interrogation.
Could you make it clear to MIL and BIL that you do not want to hear any more of their nasty digs? Have they got any idea how upsetting it is for you? Would you go so far as to break contact with them if necessary because they seem to be the worst ones for making you feel low?
Also, you sound like a great boss OP. Don’t change for anyone.