To hate how women speak tentatively

[amillionnamechangeslater000]

I’ve noticed it on podcasts, Radio 4 and in real life. It seems like everyone has started to add a high intonation when they speak - so a statement sounds like a question.

So Aibu to hate this style of speaking?

I think it's two different things

I agree. The ingrained socialisation of women to give way and accommodate men along with the demarking of women who don't conform has been around forever. The addition of the rising tone is more recent. The former is the bigger issue.

Interesting I never thought of this tone as sounding uncertain, I guess it's because I'm from Scandinavia and I've been told I sound harsh or rude, when I'm not trying to be.

It's annoying, it makes me feel like the person thinks I'm dumb and don't understand their point. I feel the same about "you know what I mean" and "does that make sence" inserted after every sentence. I'm not stupid, thank you, I know what you mean.

PigsDOFly, how it was first adopted doesn't necessarily mean it always remains that way. Several posters have already pointed out that their young people have now abandoned this fashion of speech, as ArriettyHomily says:"It died out though and now as the majority of us are professional women I really don't notice it". My own experience is that it hasn't died out to the same extent among young women from a w/c background. That was my point.
Where it came from historically, in the 90s is irrelevant, if it is used to judge young people now.

Plenty of features that we now consider upper-class or working-class or "not educated" or typically American have a history that doesn't correspond to current usage.

It's the same thing with pronunciation.

I've lost track of the number of words that used to be pronounced in a particular way in this country but are now pronounced in the American way.

People here watch a huge amount of American films and TV and it has a massive influence on our language.

It's also happened with spelling. More and more people here are using the American spellings of words now.

It drives me mad. The kardadhians are bad from it and I think a lot of young girls do it now too

It hasn't died out, it's just moved from the end of the sentence. There is definitely still an inflection or some sort of weird emphasis within the sentence, and it's among professional women in their 40s.

I can't describe it but when I hear it again I will come back to this thread and elaborate.

@SapphosRock what was the name of the book. Really interesting thread. Working in this with my DH communication to be more assertive

It’s much easier just to demonise women who don’t conform

and then sack them and take on a man instead. I mean, that NEVER happens, does it?

Yes, @pigsDOfly - it may be hard for younger people now to realise just what a massive ‘thing’ these soaps were. And consequently how influential they were.

I don't think it necessarily comes across as someone being uncertain or submissive. It really depends on the person, what's being said and their body language (if you can see them). I used to live in Aus and the uplift at the end of the sentence pretty normal, regardless of gender. Aussie women don't generally have the reputation of being wallflowers!

YADNBU I cannot stand or understand why people do this. I understand it originated in Australia. It is tiresome and oh so annoying to listen to as you feel like you are constantly listening to a stream of questions.

I first came across it as an Australian thing. An upward inflection at the end of a sentence was an easy trick to add to any attempt to do an Aussie accent. Technically it's known as a High Rising Terminal and personally I blame its spread here on awful Australian soap operas like Neighbours and Home and Away.

I agree - it started around the time Neighbours came on our screens in this country - so 25 years ago perhaps. It's got worse and worse though. I don't think I do it, at least not all the time, but am doing my best to school my mid 20s DDs out of the habit.

I hate it and rage against my teens doing it.
Some accents naturally have this. Fine. Everyone else needs to STOP IT NOW.
Also the tendency to burble in a low gravelly voice e.g.”vocal fry”.
Both these things have come from America.

It isn't exclusively female, by the way. If you've listened to Daniel Radcliffe's Desert Island Discs he does it all the way through and it's absolutely infuriating. I had to switch it off (and I love DID!)

Oh and I agree with pigs re pronunciation . NEEther/NEYEther being a case in point. Neether has become more common, even in people I grew up with who used neither until a few years ago.

What I dislike is the way some female presenters smile and laugh. Men don't do this as much.
If I'm watching someone interview someone I want direct questions.

I do it, I hate that I do it, but I do. I do it less now I’m in my 30s but I learnt at school that if you sound confident the other kids bully you relentlessly for being ‘up yourself’. If you say ‘I think...’ in that weedy voice you don’t get as much crap- better yet don’t answer at all.

It might be partly to do with the fact that I have a ‘rough’ accent. If I make a statement outright without doing this I get some funny looks.

@BayLeaves

I find this quite a mean and judgy thread TBH. I probably talk this way and use "like" a lot, but why should I force myself to become conscious of the way I speak and awkwardly have to change my tone? Because it doesn't sound "authoritative"? Why should I change to sound more authoritative. To me, intoning things this way means that you're open to having your opinion challenged and that's not a bad thing. Additionally, speech and language changes over time. If we didn't accept changes we would all be aiming to sound like 1950s BBC newsreaders.

Funny how it's always women who are told their tone isn't right. Maybe men should change their tone to sound less arrogant and more open to other opinions.

Excellent point.

It’s sooooo annoying! I absolutely hate it. I started noticing it since about 10 years ago mostly with younger women and now it’s everywhere. Or maybe I have become sensitised to it.

It’s a very annoying affectation and I can’t bear it.

I first noticed it on my gap year. It seemed every Brit I met that had been in Australia for all of 2 weeks had adopted it.

Now I notice many of my sons’ female friends do it, along with their faux ultra posh voices and strangled vowels. It’s very odd.

I work in an organisation where most senior managers and the CEO are female. I’m pleased to say I haven’t noticed it at work.

It is annoying but I'm surprised that it's considered something that just women do. I listen to quite a lot of podcasts and I think most of the younger men who are not professionally trained broadcasters do it as well.

I agree it originates with the Kardashians and has rippled across the globe.

The discussion on this thread is fascinating. Thanks to the OP for posting it. I find interesting points on both sides. In places it does come across as an attack on women's speech, but it's interesting to read at first-hand how women who have adopted a more direct tone have found their behaviour policed.

It's not an attack on women to point out that socio-linguistic research long ago proved that we do use more defensive language than men. We apologise more. The 'Just' is a thing I've made a conscious effort to weed out of my correspondence and speech. It isn't necessarily a matter of criticising women, but a question of recognising when we are perhaps unconsciously diminishing ourselves or making ourselves subordinate to the authority of others. The same is true of non-verbal communication (hence 'manspread' against women making our bodies smaller and less conspicuous).

A PP wrote:

Funny how it's always women who are told their tone isn't right. Maybe men should change their tone to sound less arrogant and more open to other opinions.

Oh, how I agree. But I'm also a realist who recognises that the likelihood of this is next to nil. I'd like to see a change in attitude which denotes that assertiveness in women is not rudeness. It's not our responsibility to soften and 'mother' everyone else.

That last point leads me to the comments made about academia. The 'in loco parentis' type attitude sometimes expected of lecturers IME does almost always fall to women. As for our judgement by students, no matter whether we take a softer approach or a more direct one, no matter how senior we are and how well-endowed in our own subject discipline, male academics are consistently rated higher in module evaluation questionnaires than females. Nor does academic hierarchy alter a thing: the same is the case from the most junior, PhD-candidate teaching assistants right through to senior professors.

Consistent questioning and rising intonation does grate, and not only in spoken discourse. Peer publications infuriate me when they consistently ask rhetorical questions of the reader. No - YOU are the author and this is your research thesis. I don't care about answering your questions: that's your job. Decisive statements work (and I'm aware that I also have to work on this. Social indoctrination is a very powerful thing).

I wish every citizen of this country could undergo a detailed course in unconscious bias.

It definitely predates the kardashians. Why would you assume that the young men aren’t professionally trained?

YABU for generalising and 'hating' their behaviours, which are imposed on them by the patriarchal society we still live in.

If you want to hate something, hate the patriarchy.