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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think people dont understand the magnitude of the social housing crisis?

576 replies

Arrowfanatic · 30/01/2020 13:07

I work in social housing. We have endless requests for moves from customers who expand their family whilst in a property which is unsuitable to move them to a bigger property. We advise that family size housing (3 bed+) has a waiting list of around 10+ years and then these customers get mad.

We're accused of allowing them to stay in overcrowded properties, or affecting their mental & physical health and inevitably an overcrowded property becomes prone to damp & mould as it's too full.

These customers also want these houses in the exact location they desire, thereby limiting even more their chances of a move.

We get so demoralised when every day it's the same thing, but social housing is at a massive shortfall for the needs of the country & family size housing is in an even greater shortfall.

My company has an extensive plan to build more properties but it's a 5 year plan!

It's like they think we're lying to them, or the old classic of "you housing immigrants straight away" note, we dont, they have to apply like everyone else. We dont want our customers in unsuitable accommodation, and we really work hard on making the housing stock we do have work.

If you're in this position what could we tell our customers to make them understand the position we are in, and the one they have put themselves in and why we cant help as quickly as they would like.

I feel like I say "we have a shortage of family size housing" 100 times a day & get yelled at 100 times a day for our association not caring. Sad

OP posts:
ChardonnaysDistantCousin · 01/02/2020 13:48

But the leaseholders are landlords whether they live in or not.

Doesn't make it right.

ChardonnaysDistantCousin · 01/02/2020 13:52

Subletting is the lowest. They take advantage or people who cannot rent legally, for example because they don't have a bank account, or references, or money for a deposit, and charge high rents because they use their vulnerability, while taking their cash and not declaring anything.

Not sure why you are defending these practices.

EntropyRising · 01/02/2020 13:58

I'm not defending it, I'm saying it's rational (and absolutely rife in London). It is a misuse of a state asset, therefore unethical.

Mind you, I was referring to the example of subletting a desirable flat for market value and living elsewhere. Exploiting someone without papers is a different matter entirely, and yes, despicable.

woodhill · 01/02/2020 14:06

Yes the tenants subletting are not exactly being discriminated against as an earlier poster stated. Hopefully some councils will have the backbone to audit their properties.

AdaKirkby · 01/02/2020 14:09

@thequeef

Clearly I am not wrong. If you earn less than 38k, you are not subsidising others.

Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t make it wrong.

You are an idiot.

AdaKirkby · 01/02/2020 14:11

@thequeef

Sorry for dropping to your level (that of a 5 year old). You have reduced this thread to a playground with your name calling. Grow up and behave like an adult.

HeIenaDove · 01/02/2020 14:25

Ta @CoalTit and no @zsazsajuju that was not me. We dont all live life by your standards.

HeIenaDove · 01/02/2020 14:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HeIenaDove · 01/02/2020 14:42

Slum clearance in the 1930s combined with the impact of the Great Depression brought a poorer working class into council housing for the first time, and with it some of the perceived problems and demonising stereotypes applied to council tenants more generally in recent years

The policy shift reflected a political division between Conservative politicians who believed council housing should properly be reserved for the neediest (the market would provide for the rest) and those on the left who saw it as serving ‘general needs

Another extract from John Boughtons book demonstrating that social housing only being for the very neediest is a right wing stance

And stop pretending that you care about the neediest @zsazsajuju when on this thread. .................
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3702945-Gardens-not-accessible-to-social-tenants

you begrudged SH tenants including ex Grenfell residents having
access to the gardens.

Menora · 01/02/2020 14:46

According to ONS the average earnings across the UK is now £35,000pa gross

Statistically women earn less than men as they are more likely to be responsible for raising children and working part time

So if the average salary is less than you need to be a tax contributor, and the majority of people are not in the top 20%, this explains why over 7 million families still require tax credits

But by all means, keep banging on about social housing

HeIenaDove · 01/02/2020 14:53

www.insidehousing.co.uk/comment/comment/housing-associations-must-stop-acting-as-if-their-tenants-need-to-be-saved-63659

Housing associations must stop acting as if their tenants need to be saved

COMMENT
15/10/19
BY ELIZABETH SPRING

After a comment piece calling for no return to lifetime tenancies, Elizabeth Spring argues that housing associations must stop treating their tenants as if they need saving

Twitter
Facebook
eCard

Elizabeth Spring
Elizabeth Spring is a third sector development manager
Picture: Getty
Picture: Getty
Sharelines
Twitter IHTenants are endlessly characterised as “most vulnerable in society”, with landlords eagerly keen to help us aspire. That most of us don’t want or need to, seems to have been lost, writes @espringW11
Twitter IHProviding good homes with rents linked to local incomes is an invaluable, essential thing. It doesn’t need to trigger claims of saviourhood or rescue, writes @EspringW11
Inside Housing recently published an opinion piece by a senior housing practitioner outlining her belief that lifetime tenancies are for a bygone era. Tenants should rent for a maximum seven years and understand they’re “temporary custodians of a property”.

OK.

"On Twitter, I commented:“Housing associations are from a bygone era when working people expected to be part of a respectful social contract. Decent comfortable homes for life, affordable for people with medium to lower-paid jobs. Now, chivvying and temporary tenures are inflicted by judgemental gatekeepers.”

Elizabeth Spring 💚
@ESpringW11
Housing Associations are from a bygone era when working people expected to be part of a respectful social contract. Decent comfortable homes for life, affordable for people with medium to lower paid jobs. Now, chivvying & temporary tenure are inflicted by judgemental gatekeepers. twitter.com/insidehousing/status/1180037339160014848

124
6:35 AM - Oct 5, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy
80 people are talking about this
Usually when I vent my irritation on Twitter at the pernicious social engineering beloved by some scions of social housing, I get a few “likes” from tenants and academics.

This time lots of people – tenants, leaseholders, housing sector staff and commentators, joined in agreeing. So Inside Housing offered me space to expand my response. Now I come to write it, there’s far too much to say. It’s obvious the issue is a lack of secure homes. The answer is not that more people should live insecurely, surely?

I think some providers have shifted into continually reminding tenants the properties we live in and pay for don’t belong to us. But where is the acknowledgement of the rent we pay, the lives we lead, our right to agency in our own lives?

A high percentage of tenants are middle-aged and older: we took tenancies as a mainstream option when we were young – and our homes were explicitly rented for life and referred to usually as community or public housing

The selling off of many council homes without replacement and the rise in the dominance of corporate giant housing associations, has of course changed the landscape. Now hugely paid decision-makers are unlikely to be renting or have as their own neighbours the retail staff, nurses, care workers, community and voluntary sector employees, factory workers, manual tradespeople, nursery nurses and health professionals who are still “social” tenants.

Nowadays many landlords’ employees approach tenants as the endlessly characterised “most vulnerable in society”, eagerly keen to help us aspire. That most of us don’t want or need to, seems to have been lost. Being clientised in older age when we have no way of moving anywhere else is painful and demeaning. But what of younger tenants?

The shrunken pool of homes has made gatekeeping the norm. Somehow the long term lack of supply has led to the message our homes belong not to us but to our landlords’ staff. And even more bizarrely, so do our lives! Employees increasingly behave as if they manage “communities” rather than simply ensuring the buildings we rent are in good nick

The real message of temporary tenures, is that people should be processed and managed. All-powerful strangers behind computers, grant probationary tenancy agreements to tenants who must first declare themselves as mad, bad or sad.

Later they decide how long people can live in their homes. Are they needy and vulnerable enough? Earning little enough? Obedient enough?

The question could be “how can we bring together neighbourhoods to advise and lobby for the homes that are required?” not “how can we move this latest bunch out of ‘our’ properties?”

The deficit model is a self-feeding monster. People living through temporary crises get labelled with a victim identity that must be retained to keep a home

Landlords begin to claim to turn round people’s lives, enable people to be independent, empower people. Yet people move forward after divorce, illness, bereavement, redundancy and times of acute poverty in every form of housing tenure.

Providing good homes with rents linked to local incomes is an invaluable, essential thing. It doesn’t need to trigger claims of saviourhood or rescue, or demean those renting them.

If we’re all clients, conversations die out and “engagement strategies” move in. People in all their diversity and difference are described en bloc as “our residents”. Tenant comes to mean lower person. The strengths and expertise of multi-generational, resilient working people are sidelined.

Last year I helped set up a community-led housing forum in London where I live. The eagerness for self-run options was exciting. People from private and social rented housing, young adults still living with parents, co-op members wanting to expand their offer, gathered in a series of well-attended meetings. At the end people were asked to summarise the sessions. The same refrains rang out each time

Where will our children live?”, “let’s try to reach our landlords and start a dialogue of equals”, “I love the idea of gaining control of my own life” and “we’re stronger together”.

When the Brexit palaver is over and presumably we have a new government, we – neighbourhoods, campaigners, politicians, housing providers – should meet and move forward into a cleaner, more respectful relationship.

Let’s ditch temporary tenancies and try, together, to create more homes"

Elizabeth Spring, third sector development manager

TheQueef · 01/02/2020 15:16

Sorry for calling you a plum Ada you are right it was juvenile and I'm an idiot. Smile

Arrowfanatic · 01/02/2020 15:31

Helena, I dont know where you got those quotes but I wholeheartedly disagree with the theme

We are not just boys behind a computer! I personally know staff who have gone out & bought food shopping for residents, who have paid to put gas and electric on meters. We deal with hoarders who need real help.

I personally have found 2 dead bodies and just last week had a phone call where I had to listen to someone commit suicide. We are not robots behind computers, we are decent human beings working on an uphill struggle to help those who are the most vulnerable in society.

I don't know what your baggage is helena but you are wrong on so many levels

OP posts:
Jonb6 · 01/02/2020 23:04

I don't think HelenaDove is making these points as a personal attack, just pointing out that the lack of comprehensive housing policy under successive governments has resulted in a broken system, and having worked within housing as an advocate I wholeheartedly agree. It is dreadful, but particularly bad for the poor and vulnerable among us.

HeIenaDove · 02/02/2020 00:04

Jon yes thats exactly it. Its easier to copy and paste it so all the facts are there rather than put it into my own words (which im perfectly capable of doing and have done many times on here) and miss something out or misquote something which some on here would be only to eager to jump on.

HeIenaDove · 02/02/2020 00:31

@Rewilderness @Domino20

HeIenaDove · 02/02/2020 00:33

HelenaDove Sun 12-Aug-18 19:00:49
n Boxing Day last year, Sarah Henley and her partner were asleep alongside their eight-month-old baby Rudi when they were roused by cries. Water was pouring through the bedroom light fitting on to their son, soaking his cot and their bed. It was exactly two years since the couple had reported water leaks over a stairwell in the shared-ownership block managed by London & Quadrant (L&Q). They claim nothing was done and the leaks then spread to their flat in the four-year-old building.

“In August 2017 we came home to find water pouring through the ceiling on to our bed, which is fixed and can’t be moved, and my son’s cot,” says Henley, who lives in the London borough of Southwark. “I then discovered that a report had been made six months previously but no action had been taken.”

The family complained again and scaffolding was twice erected but removed without any repairs being done. In December, water began soaking their bedroom again and the family was forced to move into a hotel and then a series of Airbnb rentals.
Once the biggest housing associations own 90% of social homes, tenants will lose out
Colin Wiles
Read more

“Because nobody could give us a timeline we had to completely re-arrange all our plans for our baby’s first Christmas and keep moving between temporary accommodation until the flat was habitable again,” says Henley, who was forced to move three times over eight days. Six days after they moved back into their flat, the leaks resumed and they spent three weeks shifting between Airbnb rentals and friends’ flats

L&Q is one of the country’s largest and most prosperous housing associations, accommodating 250,000 people across London and the south-east in homes built with the help of tax-payer subsidies.
Advertisement

In spite of – or because of – its rapid expansion, residents on some estates say they have spent years complaining of substandard living conditions and have had lengthy battles over repairs. All 43 reviews on the TrustPilot website mention neglected repairs and unheeding customer services.

Lisa Askew, a social tenant, launched a petition in 2016 to force L&Q to take action after two years of damp, mould, cracks and vermin in her home in Welling, Kent, which affected the health of her baby daughter. L&Q eventually moved her to another estate where, she says, problems have continued.

“I’ve been to hell and back with L&Q. They took two years to repair a leaking water tank in the living room, and our house appears to be suffering from subsidence with huge cracks in the walls,” she says. “I tripped over defective floorboards I had complained about, causing a hairline crack in my knee and soft tissue damage, and had to wear a cast for 12 weeks. We’re trapped in a house we don’t feel safe in because we can’t afford to rent privately or own a home of our own.”

L&Q says that a structural engineer was sent in May and concluded that the cracks were due to thermal movement rather than subsidence. It agreed to appoint another surveyor for a second opinion

On Henley’s estate, leaks that damaged four flats have been fixed, but residents have reported frequent and long-lasting breaks in the supplies of hot water and heating over the four years since the estate was built.

This month, in the height of the heatwave, the water supply was disconnected for a day without warning while repairs were carried out, and L&Q was obliged to reimburse Henley’s partner, Timothy O’Hara, for the cost of a pair of shoes ruined when he had to wade with his young son through raw sewage, which regularly floods the parking area.

In spite of the problems, the service charge has been increased by 18% for next year, some of it for services that have not been provided.
Right to buy puts 40% of ex-council homes in private rental - MPs' report
Read more

“Each time we have a meeting with L&Q we are promised that things will get fixed and dealt with and then nothing happens or things get worse,” says Graeme Legge, a resident who has called for help from his MP, the mayor of London and the housing ombudsman.

“Sometimes the hot water outages last as long as a month but the compensation we have been offered has been paltry and we have had to push for rebates when we’ve been charged for services we haven’t received

L&Q says: “We would like to apologise to residents for the ongoing issues that they are experiencing. Repairs to the roof were completed earlier this year and we are installing a new boiler system to address the hot water outages, which we expect to be complete by the end of next week. We are enlisting an external supplier to mend the sewage pipe in the car park as it is a specialist repair job. It is being dealt with as an urgent matter.”

It adds that service charges are based on an initial estimate of expenditure, which is later reviewed. “In the case of this year, the charges for this estate have increased because a caretaking charge has been added,” it says. “All residents have received additional refunds where services were compromised. We have and will continue to compensate residents on a case-by-case basis in relation to any issues still affecting them.”

Last year, Sadiq Khan, the London mayor, announced an £8bn partnership with the company to build 20,000 homes, in spite of denouncing its poor maintenance record in a BBC interview in 2010. A further 80,000 new homes are planned within the next 10 years

When asked about resident dissatisfaction with L&Q, the mayor’s office said Khan had raised the issues with L&Q but has no remit to get involved in individual complaints

The mayor believes that no one should have to live in substandard conditions, and landlords must resolve any issues with their homes as a matter of urgency,” it says. “Unlike affordable housing investment, the regulation of social housing landlords has not been devolved to the GLA in London. Nonetheless, when housing management issues are brought to the mayor’s attention by residents, his team picks them up with councils and housing associations directly, as they have done in this case.”

Housing associations are not-for-profit organisations created in the 1960s to provide low-cost homes for workers. However, critics claim that standards and affordability are being compromised as they become increasingly commercialised. Figures compiled by the Times show that nearly 100,000 homes built for social rent at less than 50% of the market rate have been sold off or converted for higher rents since 2012. The Chartered Institute of Housing predicts another 80,000 social rent homes will disappear by 2020

Meanwhile, housing association chiefs’ pay has soared, with an average salary of £166,205 in 2017. Last year, L&Q’s chief executive, David Montague, received a basic salary of £344,000, making him the fifth-highest paid in the sector

This year, in spite of a slight cut, he will take home £408,564, including a bonus and cash in lieu of pension, yet residents complain he has ignored all requests to engage with them over their years of unresolved problems.

L&Q says that executive pay is set by a governance and remuneration committee and reflects “value for money, current market levels, and the importance of talent retention for an organisation that is large, complex and commercially driven to deliver social goals”.

Government cuts have helped drive the sector into ever more commercial ventures. In 2012 the budget that subsidised social housing was reduced by 60% and in 2015 George Osborne, the then chancellor, imposed a 1% annual rent cut for four years, only a year after committing to a decade of inflation-linked rises. This reduced the income of housing associations, many of which fund social projects using the profits from building, selling and renting full-price homes.
Mayor to subsidise 'naked' homes solution to London housing crisis
Read more

Last year 40% of L&Q’s £1bn turnover came from rents and sales at market rates. Although it is one of the most prolific builders in the sector, only half of the 100,000 homes it plans in the next decade will be what it describes as “genuinely affordable

n the past financial year it made a record operating surplus of £420m and it says it increased spending on repairs and maintenance from £120m to £173m.

Many of its residents have yet to see the benefits. Henley, who has spent £810 on emergency accommodation, has been offered £720 in expenses by L&Q and nothing to compensate for the stress and inconvenience. She is planning to take her case to a small claims court.

“The leaks have been fixed but the security gates keep breaking down, we are regularly without hot water and, until now, L&Q has blamed the sewage leak in the car park on residents putting wet wipes down the loo,” she says. “It’s hard enough living and working in London with a new baby, without having to move frequently and endure the endless admin to get problems fixed"

HeIenaDove · 02/02/2020 00:36

HelenaDove Mon 13-Aug-18 15:27:11
From the comments underneath the article.

HelenaDove Mon 13-Aug-18 15:12:29

Comment from under the Guardian article ive linked upthread.

Katewashere
8h ago
2 3

I used to live in one of the developments in London run by L&Q. One week, out of the blue, the entire building received a formal letter saying our rent was to go up by 25%. I am a single person who works for the NHS who was already paying more than I could really afford. I am too old to still being living in the shared system and unable to afford to rent on the open market on my salary (I have a degree and am senior in my field but hey, austerity) so when I was given a flat through L&Q I was hugely relieved. I was at the point of planning to leave London before I got my flat. This rent hike pushed things back over the edge

The letter was one of the most callous things I've ever read - it basically said that they knew this would be a shock which was why they were giving us a week to decide what to do - basically pay the increased rent, or move out. There was a number to call with any queries but when we rang the number there was a recorded voice message saying the man who had written the letter was on leave for the next ten days.

On my floor alone, three of my neighbours moved out and all of them were forced to leave London: one was a midwife who moved back with her parents on the Isle of Wight. Others were NHS key workers also

I am relieved to see that the activities of L&Q are finally being investigated. If they are making deals to have access to land to build properties by pretending to Government that they provide affordable accommodation to key workers when the reality is that they do not, its time for Government to step in. It is not good enough for Sadiq to wash his hands, especially if he says that housing is a priority for him. L&Q need to be investigated
Add message | Report | Message poster
HelenaDove Mon 13-Aug-18 15:24:29

MinxieSue wilfulsprite
16h ago
1 2

Yep!

Its called a Section 8 eviction...

All new Housing Association Tenancies created since 1991 can use this section, to evict you as soon as you have 8 weeks or more rent arrears. This option is not available to local authorities.

Housing Associations are increasingly using it as a way to evict tenants (even those who lose their jobs and have to claim Universal Credit, which is paid at least 6 weeks in arrears, and may take the DWP through admin delays much longer).

Don't look to the court to assist you either, even if the housing association hasn't bothered with repairs. The Tories tied the hands of the judges, and made it mandatory to grant an eviction warrant once the 8 weeks arrears had passed, no matter what caused the arrears...

Oh and you are unlikely to get legal aid to assist either!

Then, once the tenant is evited, the property is often re-let at full or not far off maximum market rent. So there is actually a perverse incentive for the housing association to evict tenants, sop the property can be re-let on a much higher rent!

Many former local authority tenants who voted to transfer to a Housing Association, have found themselves subsequently caught up in a section 8 notice eviction...

The only truly secure Housing Association lets (that have the same terms and conditions as local authority tenancies), are those created before 1st January 1989

ChardonnaysDistantCousin · 02/02/2020 10:05

Sorry, Helena, but these long walls of copy and paste are really difficult to read and don't really add to the discussion the way a post in your own words will.

ddraigygoch · 02/02/2020 10:15

Agreed. Is there a TL:DR version.

ChardonnaysDistantCousin · 02/02/2020 10:23

Tennants treated unfairly, Sadiq Khan promises he'll do better. Tories are evil.

Alonelonelyloner · 02/02/2020 10:58

My sister and her husband live in a 3 bed council house. The kids have left home bar one. He has a professional job. My sister has never worked (because she just hasn't, no medical reasons). They are totally depriving a family of a home when they can afford to either rent privately or get a mortgage (they live in a very cheap area/city). It's ridiculous. But she has a sense of entitlement which blows my mind.

UYScuti · 02/02/2020 11:02

I find Helenadove's posts helpful and easy to read

UYScuti · 02/02/2020 11:04

It's not just 'Tories are evil', it's that people in positions of power need to be held accountable,
housing is too important to the social fabric, to society as a whole for it just to be left to market forces and unscrupulous private companies

ColdWinterChild · 02/02/2020 11:36

This was an interesting thread until Helena has come in and shoehorned a load of c&p. Honestly, I now just try and scroll past whenever I see her post.