Not sure how to answer tenant’s question

[Silverflake]

I’m renting my flat out from today, the tenants (couple, 2 bed flat) are moving in this afternoon. I’ve not been a landlord before so this is all new to me.

I’ve had a message from the letting agent today: “The tenant reached out to us asking once they move in and been there for a couple of weeks how it would work with having friends over and if you allowed them how long it for them to stay?”

I’m not sure how to answer this. I rented myself for 20 years and it wouldn’t have occurred to me to ask this - I had friends or relatives to stay on odd occasions for a night or two, maybe every few weeks.

I wouldn’t want people staying there all the time as I have to think of my neighbours downstairs (small block of 4 flats) and additional noise. And wear and tear on the flat to a certain extent I suppose? Do I even have the right to specify this though? And if so, what is reasonable? Are they trying to get me to agree to a certain amount so that it becomes a regular arrangement/partial sublet thing and then I can’t complain at a later date? Or am I overthinking it?

WIBU to say they can have one or two people to stay no more than once a week? Really not sure what the done thing is here so any advice would be great, thanks

When I was letting I made it 100% clear that there was to be none staying overnight for more than three nights and no one sleeping other than in a bed. So no one sleeping on sofa or floor.

That sounds as if you're saying that tenants shouldn't be able to have guests at all unless they have a spare bedroom, but that can't be right?

I agree its is a strange question to ask and so makes one wonder! But I would tend to think that they mean to be considerate rather than the opposite. Chancers and CFs usually stay quiet.

Silverflake I also think that your agent should be reassuring you what is in the contract regarding subletting.

I also think that you don't have the legal right to restrict or make specific conditions re guests (so long as they are temporary) as this impinges upon the right to quiet enjoyment etc. Morally I think it is absolutely wrong as well. Homeowners are simply not restricted in the same way.

But you are already protected.

Any noise or nuisance, or unreasonable damage caused by guests, parties, additional cars even, etc will (or should) already be covered in the tenancy agreement by nuisance clauses, and clauses against damage and subletting etc.

So when you already have these clauses, IMO putting additional specifications and limitations on guest stays is likely to be deemed an unfair and/or onerous term that conflicts with the tenants legal rights, and so even if you put them in the contract a judge might well rule them unfair and unenforceable. (search unfair terms in contract agreements, tenancy etc)

I know many LLs and agents want to put the frighteners on tenants so that they 'behave' (which is intimidation and coercion - homes are not optional so people sign because they have to live somewhere, not because they necessarily agree with the terms) but you have to think of this in terms of what can actually be enforced, and what sanction could be imposed. Short of criminal behaviour which is not the issue of the LL, sanctions can really only be (justifiable not punitive) monetary recompense or eviction.

If you actually tried to evict a tenant for breach of contract because they had an guest overnight without permission for example, a judge should dismiss it immediately as the punishment far outweighs the breach, and should rule it too draconian. Clearly the LL incurred no costs (except a ridiculous court case) so no money can be awarded, and so the clause is utterly pointless but has caused the tenant a lot of unnecessary stress. And the LL is frustrated simply because they misunderstood how the law works.

Too many LLs and agents rely on being able to intimidate and restrict perfectly nice tenants (not saying that's you OP, whilst the bad tenants will break any and every clause no matter what you write.

I am not a lawyer but have some relevant experience and you can read plenty of legal stuff that would support my views.

Also I think it is sensible to drop a card at the neighbouring properties giving the contact details of the managing agent and/or LL so that if the neighbours pick up on anything untoward they have someone to make aware. They might or might not be reasonable if they do complain, but I think it gives the LL some peace of mind that problems might be flagged up between inspections. And anyway it makes sense if there is any building works, issues with utilities etc.

Why dont you actually have a conversation with the tenant and ask them exactly what they had in mind, then you can talk about times, overoccupation, nuisance to neighbours etc

This. Why do landlords always start from the position that tenants are some kind of malicious 'other' who are always trying to fuck them over?

Also I think it is sensible to drop a card at the neighbouring properties giving the contact details of the managing agent and/or LL so that if the neighbours pick up on anything untoward they have someone to make aware.

Yes this. Something like "x and y have just moved into flat 6. They are ex-council and are probably cunts - we will need to watch them like hawks. If you see anything that you don't like, just let me or the agency know and we'll get rid. Cheers"

Short, clear, to the point.

Just to give a different perspective...
I moved into a flat a few years ago and on move in day asked my landlord if a friend could stay in the spare room for 3 weeks while he found his own flat. He'd been going to move in with a partner but they split up and he's a bit disorganised and didn't sort something else out in time as he was heartbroken.
I was moving into a two bed flat with my boyfriend, we had a spare room for family and friends to be able to stay the odd weekend and because we wanted and could afford more space. I like the idea of being able to give a good friend a safe home for a week or two if needed

The landlord got really upset, thought we were trying to sneak a third tenant in under the radar. We really weren't.
We persuaded him to let the friend stay for three weeks for free then we'd pay him an extra £50pw for any time longer than that, cash in hand. He grudgingly agreed.

Friend moved out as promised, after 2 weeks and 6 days.

I wish we hadn't bothered mentioning it and just had friend to stay, it really soured our view of our landlord. He was so disappointed that our friend moved and and he wasn't able to cash in!

Sometimes people are just honest and conscientious and want to ensure they don't come across as underhand. This might be fine.

I think MN has a real tendency to overreact and assume the worst in this sort of situation.

Your reply about clarifying their intention was spot on IMO

When I was letting I made it 100% clear that there was to be none staying overnight for more than three nights and no one sleeping other than in a bed. So no one sleeping on sofa or floor.

Why? In what way was it harming you or damaging your property to have a relative stay 4 nights rather than 3, or a friend kip on the sofa?

Why? In what way was it harming you or damaging your property to have a relative stay 4 nights rather than 3, or a friend kip on the sofa?

None, but it keeps them in their place doesn't it?

I've been a landlord for nearly 20 years.

The best case scenario is that they are being very diligent and wanting to check they are not breaking any rules.

The worst (and I'm afraid my instant thought) is they are gearing up to turn your flat into an unofficial house of multiple occupancy.

It is a thing for a property to be let to a couple and then they secretly move in quite a number of "friends and family". A house near here had around 15 people living in it before the landlord evicted them.

It is unusual that they have asked though so that's a good sign. I would be asking them what they are looking to do ie who and how long, and would take it from there. If it is in fact another long term tenant I'd want the standard credit and reference checks. If it is really just a short term guest then I'd set a maximum stay and number of people.

I'm afraid as a landlord you do often have to be on the defence to make sure you're not about to be stung. Mumsnet tends to come down hard on landlords who don't let their tenants do exactly what they want, when they want, but the truth is that you do have to stay alert to make sure your white walls haven't suddenly been painted fluorescent orange gloss and 7 dogs have been snuck in.

These tenants are new. You don't have any track record of trust yet. I'm assuming you or your agent will be doing quarterly property checks for a while?

Op it's standard in some social/council housing lettings that you can't have anyone to stay more than three nights out of four in any one week, during the first year (introductory tenancy) Doing so can result in losing the tenancy. If they're used to it being specified it might be why they've asked.

My last set of tenants had a friend who they wanted to stay long term. We redid the tenancy with her as an added name, but not an official tenant as such.

A quick Google of subletting and I got this

homelet.co.uk/landlord-insurance/landlord-lowdown-blog/article/short-let-subletting-the-signs-to-look-out-for

It would be my first instinct. Sadly experience with tenants over the 10+ years has taught me to assume the worst, then be pleasantly surprised when it hasn't.

These aren't tried and trusted tenants, they're new, and literally anything could happen. They could stop paying rent, trash your property, sublet it, grow weed... Or they could just be normal people, you just don't know. Either way, I'd proceed with extreme caution, this has more red flags than Mr Corbyn.

These aren't tried and trusted tenants, they're new, and literally anything could happen

Exactly.

If they turn your property into a HMO you are liable for loads of regulations. It’s your property, it’s your responsibility to know who’s living there and to make sure they are safely living there.

Sounds dodgy, I think they are going to sublet a room. I'd say that 2 week maximum for visitor's (sort of normal holiday period). Your correct to worry about your neighbours.

It's probably because they've been council residents as they can be strict about people staying over in their council houses.

Who stays in my home is nothing to do with the landlord as long as I am not receiving payment for it. Same goes for your tenants, I’d never ask my LL that it’s none of their business as long as I pay rent and council tax then it is my home therefore I dictate who comes over and how long for

I've lived most of my adult life in rented accommodation (until 6 weeks ago when I finally got on the property ladder). I have had friends crash on my settee several times.

What a strange question.
How could you stop them having a friend stay for a night or two or perhaps they are waiting for you to say ‘no problem’ only for them to sub let the second bedroom

Sounds like they are intending to have people to stay long term and maybe rent a room to them who knows. I’d have a clause put me that of course they can have people stay short term

Are they sub letting. Ive rented for ten years and never asked my landlord when my pil and my parents stayed...saw no need as only a night or two

Your agent should be a member of Assoc of Residential Letting Agents ( ARLA) and there should be something on their website. Also there should be something in the tenancy agreement. Shelter has a very good and clear section on landlords and tennants rights.

do they think you are their Mum?

They're going to sub-let or do Air BNB.

When red flags start waving it's best to take notice of them.

This could be just they don't know what they are allowed to do. I certainly wouldn't say they were only allowed one to two guests one to two nights a week, or they will be saying granny can't come for a few days to visit,

But I'd also want to know why they asked, it's very odd.

I would say as others have that it doesn't sound hopeful. It sounds like either cousin is coming from Australia for 6 months or friend is hoping to doss down on the sofa and pay them for the foreseeable.

However it might be from a bad experience or something someone said.

My dm's first rental the landlady used to pop over not infrequently. "Just to check all's okay." On one occasion dm's sister was staying for a couple of nights and answered the door. Landlady questioned her thoroughly on who she was , how long she was staying etc. The same evening dm got an invoice put through the door for 2 nights' stay. Probably around 4 shillings!
My grandad wrote an official letter on headed notepaper saying that if she charged for overnight visitors, then presumably dm didn't have to pay for nights that she wasn't there, and as dm had been away for a fortnight, then she expected a rebate immediately.
They never heard a squeak from the landlady again.
When she moved to her next place I know she asked about overnight visitors and got a look and "no problems, why?"

Or it could be that something in the contract implied that they weren't allowed. When we got our second place I was 8 months pregnant and the t&c said "no one other than those named above will be permanently living here". Of course baby wasn't named. , but we did check that that didn't mean we were officially breaking the contract. Landlady giggled a little at the thought. (and sent us a lovely bouquet of flowers when dd arrived.)