Council homes: which one is it; envy or stigma?

[EddyF]

Or both? When I read threads on here or even in general, anyone posting about waiting for a council home, or about their council home, the replies tend to be "be grateful, you've got a 'free' flat" blah blah blah. But on the another hand, there's is always a whiff of 'stigma' attached to them and not being the first choice for most people. But if the latter is the case, why does it cause outrage/sneers that people should be grateful for paying lower rent etc?

I know someone is a bit of a snob (I like them though😄) who lives in a London typical 70s brick solid small flat with mixture of houses and other flats in the area. Her rent is so reasonable. She complains a LOT about the lack of attractiveness of her building. Inside her flat is GORGEOUS to most people's standards. Brilliantly decorated, high end stuff, kitchen and bathroom she ripped out herself years ago with no permission from the council (as most of her neighbours). Honestly it's beautiful inside. The block is outdated. This person I know can afford to move out. She complains the council encourage their buildings to be attached to 'roughness' hence why council properties have a stigma, and of she had 'proper' money, she would be put like a shot. She stays bcos she knows she has a good deal. Her 19 yr daughter is at uni, had her at 17, brought up her child with no trouble in the same property/area. It's sad she cannot see the beauty in her environment (a struggling London borough) but could be worse. All of London has pockets of deprivation. Her flat inside is so nice I just can't see the issue!

How can it be in 2019 that there is a stigma to housing when everyone knows the difficulties of getting up on the ladder?

I feel like I may have gone of tangent here😅.

Never to worry about maintenance? Where on earth have you been? Have you missed what has ACTUALLY been going on in social housing?

Meanwhile in the real world of social housing.........
www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/havering-council-tenants-report-to-ombudsman-1-6383664?fbclid=IwAR2I9CxUOlE7kAPHgPyGuJkzsRGFPXRWtAO8D8onrpDM_5GwqnQWZ6Bp-vo

A family is planning to take legal action against Havering Council after three years of misery in a home contractors said was up to scratch.

Retired bailiff Paul Lewis, 52, daughter Sophie and her three-year-old son moved into the house in Hilldene Avenue in September 2016
An inspection in the summer had given the council property a clean bill of health after basic renovations costing £6,700.

But from their first night, the tenants said, a series of nightmares - from chronic leaks to mould to rats, and the recent discovery of asbestos in the roof - have blighted their lives and led to further repair works costing tens of thousands to the taxpayer.

Mr Lewis, who is disabled and cared for full-time by his daughter, said: "We told them we've had enough of this place. We can't go on living like this

"This was meant to be my last home but it hasn't worked out. Instead they're digging their heels in, my grandson is caged up like an animal in the summer and we're running alive with rats."

In June 2016 an operative for Harold Hill-based contractor the Breyer Group inspected the empty property and found no issues with the plumbing or electrics.

Breyer was awarded a £35million contract in 2014 for repairs and void works in Havering's 10,000 homes.

The move was controversial at the time as the firm's last contract with Southwark Council had been terminated over a "life-threatening incident
The contract expired in March 2019 but has been extended until 2021, at a rough cost of £3.3m a year, before Havering begins re-procurement.

On the night the family moved in, the upstairs flooded as the radiators turned out to only be gaffa-taped to the walls

Mr Lewis said, "An emergency plumber came out and said 'How the hell have they signed this place off?'."

Black mould that had been "washed down" for £8.82 in the summer was already re-growing and rainwater seeped through the ceilings from a a leak in the roof. The leaks, the family said, "destroyed everything we had

Builders were drafted in in October 2017 to replace the old tiles and rip down the chimney stack, which it emerged was on the brink of collapse.

The electrics cabinet was out of date and pronounced "unsatisfactory" in a later inspection, while wiring in the ceiling roses were not earthed: a possible fire hazard

In mid-2017 the family reported concerns about rats and mice to the council. The garden was baited but huge rats have been found scuttling across the garden and in the kitchen cupboards, and are now thought to be living in the cavity walls.

Sophie Lewis, a former NHS secretary, told the Recorder: "My son wakes up screaming 'The rats are going to bite me, mummy'.

We lost our whole summer; we couldn't have the back doors open. How do you explain to a three-year-old that he can't go outside and play?".

Mr Lewis's floor had to be torn up after birds found their way in through a hole left open in the wall

The bathroom - which the council paid £2,700 to be brought up to "decent homes standard" in 2016 - has now been ripped out and replaced three times
n spring 2019, contractors investigating the rats in the loft made another discovery: a full sheet of chrysotile asbestos, somehow not flagged up by roofers in 2017.

One thing the Breyer operative had flagged up in summer 2016 was the need for an asbestos survey.

And throughout the roof works in 2017 dust from that part of the house had been flooding the living room.

The family, two of whom have asthma, were told that they would be moved as a matter of urgency. But then the council said it was safe for them to stay as long as the material was not "disturbed" - although the sheet was already broken

The family complained to Havering Council and the Housing Ombudsman. In June 2019, a member of Havering's complaints team upheld it, saying: "I have seen evidence of service failure and evidence procedures have not been followed."

They also apologised "for the failure in services provided to you dating back to the start of your tenancy."

But in a letter to Julia Lopez MP in August, the council's interim head of housing, Bernadette Marjoram, wrote that to date all repairs issues in the property were caused by "wear and tear", adding: "The correct processes were followed at the time."

The family have said that once re-housed, they will be seeking compensation for the council for the thousands they have paid on independent expert help.

Mr Lewis said one sub-contractor alone told him they had made more than £60,000 from work since they moved in

He said: "A few months ago they knew we didn't want to be around anymore and fudged it internally, and they still haven't dealt with the problems. I can't carry on living like this. They owe me compensation for everything we've been through."

Analysis by homelessness charity Shelter this year found that one in 10 social housing tenants had reported an issue with their home more than 10 times

Some 56 per cent of tenants surveyed in the UK had experienced a problem - from electrical hazards to gas leaks to faulty lifts - in the past three years

The charity has backed calls from campaign group Grenfell United for a new regulator for social housing. Chief executive Polly Neate said:

Polly Neate, chief executive of Shelter, said: "Tinkering with the current system just isn't good enough when people have lost trust in it to keep them safe."

The Breyer Group did not respond to a request for comment and Havering Council did not initially respond.

However, upon publication of this article, a Havering Council spokesman did then respond, describing Mr Lewis' case as "very complex" and claiming that the issues highlighted in our reporting of his living conditions "do not tell the whole story".

The spokesman added: "We have done and continue to do everything we can to resolve certain problems at the property. We are also supporting the tenants in finding a new home where we hope they will be happier.

But yeah they should just suck it up right? I cant believe ppl still come out with this shit post Grenfell.

I grew up in a council house, without which we would have been homeless. Ireland so in a very nice village on the coast. Due to education grants etc I'm now a home owner. I own it because due to the labour government ( at that time) I got in on a shared ownership as a teacher. My elderly mother and mentally ill brother still live in the council house. They are brilliantly built houses and allowed people like me, some footing on the social scale. Because I had a home, then I had ( in Ireland) free 3rd level education, then in UK the ability to buy a home. None of these things were free, just made affordable. Which is why I hope UK votes labour.

@TheQueef @Inebriati

I think its in the last ten years and having a tory gov that council housing has become stigmatised

It's original purpose was to provide secure. long term, affordable housing for EVERYONE who wanted / needed it

Nowadays its portrayed as only for the destitute, a last resort, a stepping stone to private renting or buying. I paid through the nose private renting for 10 years and never felt settled and moved every 6-12 months. I then was "lucky" enough to get evicted so I then lived in council for 7 years and I loved it, I could decorate how I wanted and afford the rent easily. I own a house now, one of my biggest fears is something happening so I lose the house and have to go back to private renting because it is hell and even worse nowadays.

Your friends house sounds lovely by the way OP I am happy for her. What she has should be a right for everyone not just the lucky few

I can’t afford to rent the size of house I need or buy where I live by myself. I work full time

I waited a long time in private rent to get into social housing and I love it I feel so lucky
I do understand how it feels to live somewhere where you have no control over the exterior, having lived in an awful flat for years with a disgusting hallway and horrible outside areas it is a bit depressing to have to look at It every day

Neither for me but I knew a couple who were very well off, he had his own business - and had lived in their council house for years. They could easily have afforded to buy their own but wouldn't budge. To me that's wrong when so many are in desperate need of housing.

I think they should be means tested annually.

We don't all live in London and often in a lot of area ,s social rent is comparable to private rent unfortunately a lot of posters on here can't seem to grasp this .

If councils/central Gov want people to move back into the private rental sector then they need to completely rehaul it and crack down on all the substandard LLs.

In all my years of private renting I never had a decent LL. I was evicted on section 21 notice once, so the LL could move his GF in. I was once left without heat and hot water for six weeks in midwinter (and without keys for the windows during a heatwave in the same property). I've had a LL who thought it was ok to simply walk into my home whenever he chose and who threatened me with physical violence when the rent was late due to an error at the council and I've a LL who refused to allow any alterations to the bland, magnolia walls including hanging pictures who wanted to do monthly inspections but I've never had a LL who I would class as good.

Even my HA LL is only adequate (repairs are often late if done at all - most repairs are classed as my responsibility or not urgent and non urgent repairs take upwards of 6 months to be completed). Still, I'll take adequate and secure over substandard and insecure any day.

Its not cant @x2boys Its dont want to.

And the cognitive dissonance really is something else The same posters go on threads advising other posters not to buy a place near social housing as its got a "reputation" When they are the ones who want it this way and are crying out for it to stay this way. They wanted and continue to want the residulisation but at the same time advise people they consider to be more worthy not to buy a house near the estate that is now what they wanted it to be.

Here a 3 bed HA is nearly £900 a month not exactly affordable housing really.
Also repairs are mainly awful, you get the cheapest possible repair that normally need repairing a few months later.
And you dont get 'for life' housing anymore, its 5 year contracts here they review it then and if your circumstances change then your asked to move.

Stigma
We've changed.
The myth is appealing to too many people, they don't want a society (what social housing creates) they believe the propaganda and think poor people are taking money and sponging so they focus on punishing poor while the richest mock them.
We know where this elitism ends.
Slums and Workhouse and Slavery.
We've got two out of three already.

@TheQueef so true. Sadly 😢

@TriangularRatbag it isn't subsidised and it doesn't matter what 'peoples' perception is of HA/council property. It's not subsidised by the tax payer. A HA is a not for profit organisation. It's ethos is to provide affordable, quality, secure housing. If you get rid of the affordable, or the security, or the quality (my HAs ethos, and many others locally) it wouldn't be a HA because they have to apply for the tax status of not for profit, similar to a charity having charitable status.

The emphasis should be on private and commercial landlords to lower the cost of private rented property, increase security and standards and whilst they will never be not for profit, then maybe they should be for less profit.

It shouldn't be a race to the bottom. Society should be looking at council and HA properties and saying if they can let that house for £450 pcm, why is the one next door, a previous council property £650 pcm.

Where I live houses similar to mine, on the same estate, actually completed to a lesser standard (mines an eco house and has a very high energy efficiency standard, plus is bigger with better parking) rent for £650 pcm. My rent is £103 pw. So that's a massive difference. I get the economy of scale, but it's not to the tune of about £180 pcm.

I grew up in a council house and it was only when it was mentioned at university that anyone was arsed, I wasn't bothered though. I do think when the waiting lists are ridiculously long it's unfair when people who admit they could afford to buy hang on in there, in honesty. I dont know anyone who owns a house who is envious, but those stuck in the rental trap and unable to buy it shouldn't take a genius to work out why they feel it's unfair. But I don't see that as begrudging others, more just the view that the system is crap.

If your stuckin poor housing or sofa srfing it,s envy. If you own your home in a nce area it may be stigma.

I've lived in a Council house for the last 6 years and have no plans to move. It's a beautiful big 3 bed house that backs onto fields. I have the best neighbours who all work.
My colleagues are surprised with the job that I do, they expected me to own my own house.
My rent is £380 a month. I plan on staying here!

speyejoe2.wordpress.com/2019/09/02/the-clarion-affordable-rent-scandal-tenants-overcharged-50m-pa/?fbclid=IwAR0KHLkiH9gtqwZhnw8qR856h0phcTwYjN7pUwSr5kOxssqXCSvUxSAie4I

" Clarion Housing Group has overcharged its tenants by unlawfully setting its average affordable rent levels at 135% of market rent. In a sample of 1,477 Clarion 2 bed rents the 2018 overcharging comes to £10.2 million alone and Clarion had eight times that number of AR properties at 11,903 so the total overcharge could be over £80 million for that year alone though an actual figure closer to a £50 million overcharge is likely, an overcharge of a cool £1 million per week"

People who are against social housing should see the new properties that are now classed as "affordable housing." Council houses/ housing associations are not All cheap and they are playing with the language. Affordable rent housing should be affordable by most or at least by a person who is earning a fulltime job on minimum wage.

I'm a bit envious of people who have lifelong tenancies (not so much the newer, shorter tenancies), to be honest.
I grew up in a London borough that is now very fashionable; I can't afford to go back. My mum moved to an Essex town with a rough reputation when I was 16 as she could no longer afford the rent despite working full-time.
We tried for years to get a council tenancy. At one point we were evicted as our landlord was selling, and my mum was advised that the council would only prioritise us once there was a CCJ, so we waited. They then said they wouldn't help unless the bailiffs literally put us and all our furniture out onto the street.
My mum managed to get a private let by taking out a loan and paying 18 months rent upfront for a significant discount, so I could finish my GCSEs.
I think that if you have a lifelong council tenancy in the southeast, you are quite lucky. Yes, you have less choice about where you live, and the accomodation is by no means perfect - but you also have more security, which is important (in my opinion, anyway).

• Our house is a council house. We pay full rent and receive no benefits. It's a good area. We have savings and could put a good deposit down on a nice 3 bed semi in our area. We choose not to as we get all repairs done and we don't have to worry about/spend our money on the external upkeep/modernisation and basically waste our savings that we'd rather enjoy in other ways than put in the property drain. Maybe I'm naive but it seems more sense to us. Most of the houses in our street were bought from the council years ago and are privately rented. 30+ years ago I was mortified that I lived in a council house and wouldn't want my friends to know. I don't think my DC are bothered about this and seem happy and proud of where they live.*

Injustice at its finest! Why on earth should someone in a position to buy, stay in a council house meaning one less home for people who really need it!

I think council/HA housing should either be - accessible to anyone. Or ONLY for those to get back on their feet. They should never have been sold off either but that’s another post.

The prime targets for such social engineering are council estates subject to large scale “regeneration” projects, another word that’s become heavily loaded. Again, some of the responsibility for this lies with New Labour. In 1998, Tony Blair launched the New Deal for Communities at the Aylesbury estate in south London. Today, the area is testimony to how housing policies dominated by private developers have reshaped working class communities and the role of HAs in this
The Elephant and Castle neighbourhood is being physically, socially and ethnically transformed. This started with the demolition of the Heygate estate, a classic for stigmatised perceptions of council housing and the people who live in it. As the local 35% Campaign has meticulously documented, a succession of promises to Heygate residents were broken to arrive at a situation where 1,214 council homes were demolished, to be replaced with 2,704 new homes, of which only 82 (3%) are for social rent. The HA partner was London and Quadrant. To be eligible for the cheapest one-bedroom home built by them on the Heygate site, people needed a minimum household income of £57,500. The average household income in that part of Southwark is £24,324

"1,214 council homes were demolished, to be replaced with 2,704 new homes, of which only 82 (3%) are for social rent"

This is happening in many areas

It isnt social tenants "home blocking" that are causing these issues.

I would agree with income assessments at regular intervals so social housing is given to those most in need.

In my area (which isn't London but is the SE) the cost of private renting way exceeds the local housing allowance. That means even if you are on 'full' benefits, your housing benefit or housing element of universal credit doesn't cover your rent. You have to top it up from your other subsistence level benefits.

If you are on full benefits and in social housing you can afford to eat and keep warm if you have no debts etc. If you are on full benefits and in private rented you will be rapidly introduced to the local food bank.

And yes 'social housing' is subsidised for all tenants, although at different levels, and it is complicated. Frequently HA only just stay afloat (there is a reason so many of them merged about ten years ago, and a reason all the old housing stock was dumped on HAs in the first place.) They often manage by taking up government funded contracts for other services. Or they did before all the local government cuts. No idea how they manage now. Other than cutting all support services for tenants.

Social and affordable housing are also not the same thing, in my area no new genuinely social housing is being built, its all affordable housing which can include things like part-buy part-rent. Buying a 40% share of a brand new 5 bed house that costs the best part of a million still counts as 'affordable housing' under some definitions.

So in my case, not envy. Just anger at help only being given to a few, and that being a bit of a lottery. But it is linked in with the awful benefits system and the huge cost of private rental. It represents a massive social injustice.