AIBU to suggest that you aren't really an animal lover if you're not a vegan

[KylieKoKo]

I'm a meateater but I was chatting to a vegan friend of mine about this and I think she has a point. It makes no sense to call yourself an animal lover if you pay others to kill animals or take their milk and eggs when its perfectly possible to live without them. I couldn't help but agree with her, and, as a non-vegan, had to conceed that I don't really love animals. In fact, I'm putting the fact that they taste nice above their lives and well-being on a daily basis.

I thought it would be interesting to see if anyone on here had an argument against this.

@KylieKoKo personally no, but dh is. As I say, spend a month farming to discuss that.

That's not what your sweeping title says. It says animals. You cannot love animals unless you are vegan. It is not farmer specific. It is not slaughter specific.

It is a person cannot love eg, a dog, unless they are vegan.

I have a friend who's a vegan, and she comes out with this kind of crap - completely unprompted - on a ridiculously regular basis. I now no longer order meat in front of her, as you can guarantee she will comment.

She says I am not an animal lover because I eat meat.

..yet when I reply SHE is not an animal lover because she mistreats her own animals (2 dogs, 4 cats, all with fleas, and some with health problems, one of them is really suffering, yet she will not pay for the vet), and buys products that are tested on animals.

But then again, she shared a picture on Facebook yesterday of someone who had a heart attack and died after taking part in a big plate meat eating challenge, and she put something alone the lines of "karma in a nutshell, absolutely hilarious and deserved." ..and I just thought that was one of the worst and horrible things I've seen in a long time.

But if vegans really loved animals would they keep them a pets
And I know 2 recently converted vegans who didn’t realise that all medicine in particular the anxiety and depression tablets they both took were tested on animals
And these are militant push it down your throat vegans since they became vegans

What do you mean? I'm a meat eater and love animals! eg chickens (battered and deep fried), pigs (honesy glazed and served with rice) etc.

I', joking but you do realise that chickens eggs don't hatch unless they're fertilised right? So taking unfertilised eggs means nothing to the chicken.

I find it interesting how you can 'love' an animal and choose to end it's life because of an illness but it's not love if you end their life to provide food to continue the circle of life. Just because we're self aware, doesn't mean we suddenly are excempt from the natural order of things. I find this to be a highly sanctimonious argument that reeks of 'first world problems'. Please tell all the people in various developing countries who barely survive on their reared animals that they're not 'animal lovers' and see if you don't get laughed out of the area.

I know many vegans that have literally nothing to do with animals. No pets, no interest in wildlife or nature, nada.

Conversely the people I know that hunt and shoot know everything about wildlife, spend most of their time outside and their lives centre around bring part of it. Conservation and keeping the balance is crucial.

Buying a can of jack fruit shipped from Australia doesn’t actually help animals.

If it’s “love” for vegans to spare a single cow by not wearing real leather and wearing vegan leather instead which sheds enough microplastics to kill a thousand wildlife animals, birds and fish....then yes vegans are animal lovers of animals but only those with big brown eyes.....

Ditto for wearing fake fur, or acrylic sweaters instead of real fur or wool. The non-vegan wearer of wool is killing no animal, but the vegan wearer of acrylic is killing thousands of animals through microplastics.

how does that work with PETA? i mean they are the biggest vegan organisation in the world, they run animal shelters, they euthanize more animals than they re-home at those shelters, so how does that work with the if you love animals you wont eat them/kill them etc on a vegan standard? if the largest vegan terrorist group kills little puppies and kittens every single day in their vegan run shelters then its a bit hypocritical to say a meat eater hates animals because they eat them

@moobar I think people can love individual animals like their pets without being an animal lover who loves all animals. This is why we eat livestock but not our pets.

It you take away animal farming, you take away a massive amount of other stuff too.

No more horses, because they'd be no point in producing food and bedding for the m. No more pets because no food for them. No vets. No assistance animals. No zoos or animal parks, many of which are actively trying to support breeding of endangered animals.

That's an enormous chunk of the economy. Iirc horse racing alone is employes something like 20k people and raises millions of pounds a year.

'animal lover' means different things to different people anyway. I'm not vegetarian, I like animals, well many of them. I hate and detest flies, mosquitoes, vermin etc, and do not feel bad for killing them if they invade my home. Does every vegan REALLY catch pests humanely and usher them outside unharmed? If so then good for them but I find it hard to believe.

Personally I'd love to see a vegan harvesting a Welsh mountain. Or any of the other environments that are completely unsuitable for arable farming. A dozen vegans hitched to a plough, heading up the side of snowdonia.

Except that isn't what most vegans mean. They mean abandon all the land that isn't suitable for arable. Kill all the wildlife that can co-exist with ethical animal farming but not arable. And kill off a few species producing crops in an undeveloped country. But of course, loads of animals dying from starvation and loss of habitat is so much more ethical than improving welfare standards with animal farming.

Strange, but I know quite a few meat eating animal lovers that only source meat from ethical, often local farmers with high welfare standards. And vegetarians that do the same for animal products. Don't think I've ever met a vegan that only eats their own produce or that of other known ethical sources.

I suppose the argument would go that if there were no farm animals, there would be more room for wild animals to live and more wild ponies etc. I don’t think veganism correlates particularly well with being environmentally friendly. But I don’t think it directly harms animals.

I think eating a vegan diet and living a vegan lifestyle is a perfectly valid personal preference.

As is eating meat.

I think neither have a great deal to Di with being an ‘animal lover’ in any meaningful sense.

I would rather everyone ate locally and sustainably. So no avocados toast for you, and very little tofu, no out of season vegetables etc.

Most of the western world (vegans, vegetarians and omnivores alike) aren’t up for that level of daily inconvenience.

So anyone who wishes to preach can jog on, as far as I’m concerned.

I don't "love" all animals. I mean I like animals, I care about their welfare and try to be mindful of the meat I buy.
I love my dog, but I'm not going to eat him.

It’s all a ranking system, an animal hierarchy.

Dogs, cats on top
Horses, guinea pigs, hamsters and domestic rodents.

Get down to the bottom where under the vermin rats and mice are the cockroaches, the head lice and the tape worms.

No one loves every animal.

how does that work with PETA? i mean they are the biggest vegan organisation in the world, they run animal shelters, they euthanize more animals than they re-home at those shelters, so how does that work with the if you love animals you wont eat them/kill them etc on a vegan standard? if the largest vegan terrorist group kills little puppies and kittens every single day in their vegan run shelters then its a bit hypocritical to say a meat eater hates animals because they eat them
Isnt the PETA argument (apart from them 'we're massive self publicists') that by killing stray animals they are saving other animals that have to die to feed them? So maybe they wouldn't care if all the farm animals died because they weren't bred for food.
I had a former friend who used a similar argument with me. She was quite a militant vegan, before it was fashionable The honest truth was that I didn't 'love animals'. I still don't really. I love the animal I know, my dog, dearly. He was a rescue and had spent a year in kennels before he came to live with us. He scoffs his meaty dinner every day. I don't know why I don't care enough that animals are slaughtered in abattoirs for us to eat. I don't want them to suffer unnecessarily, but I don't really care enough about it to become vegan. I suppose there is some truth in the statement. if you are vegetarian because you love animals and you don't want them to be killed for you to eat, you shouldn't want them to be killed for you to have milk either.

We feed the birds - probably hundreds. However, from time to time (twice this week), a sparrow hawk visits and takes one. We feel sorry for the wood pigeon whatever, but recognise the sparrow hawk is only trying to live its life and raise its family. We also get buzzards, red kites, peregrines and the odd osprey flying over the area. The sparrow hawk could be killed by a bigger bird of prey!

We feed the hedgehogs and provide them with 2 houses - however they go round eating insects, slugs, etc all night.

We watched lions hunting at night in Africa.

Being an animal lover can mean, we support high welfare standards for animals, but also recognise everything can get eaten by something bigger! That is the way it is!

We also believe nature will restore the balance and wipe us out soon!

Because life isn’t black and white, and these sort of issues obviously can’t be distilled so simply.

You can’t be an animal lover if you treat your kids for nits or worms.

You can’t be an animal lover if you would scratch a bee sting out of your arm instead of letting the bee take it back.

You can’t be an animal lover if you own a cat because they kill birds and rodents.

You can’t be an animal lover if you have a pet because that’s unnatural.

You can’t be an animal lover if you don’t like wasps or mosquitoes.

Could probably keep going until no one’s an animal lover.

YANBU.

Created an account to respond to this. I'm a mum of 2 healthy vegan children and also an animal rights activist.

Speciesism is what makes people love some species, such as cats and dogs, and see other species as merely objects to be used, such as cows and pigs.

A true 'animal lover' would not differentiate between a pig or cat for example, in their concern for it not being tortured and abused simply for a meal.

I would urge anyone who doesn't understand what I am saying or who can't engage with this subject to watch 'Land of Hope and Glory' on YouTube. This will show you standard UK farming practices. If you feel this is something you would not like to go through yourself as a human animal then please stop funding for non-human animals to be put through it.

Animals are here with us, not for us, all of them.

Unfortunately due to ignorance and social conditioning, many parents are unaware of the health risks of dairy and meat for humans. Also, as a parent, are you really ok with paying for a mother and baby calf to be separated and the baby shot in the head, for milk you don't need? Are you ok with cows being artificially inseminated (yes, this is rape).

It's good that these discussions are happening on mumsnet and people are becoming more aware of these issues. No one is free until all are free and at liberty.

Its getting people to connect the dots..its beyond the comprehension of most who justify animal abuse&torture..Console yourself with the fact that animal flesh consumption wont be an option in 20years time-we simply wont have the space&resources to throw at these antiquated human feeding habits if we intend on sustaining the world population.

AI isn't rape.

Calves aren't routinely shot in the head at birth. Sexed semen means more female calves are born anyway.

Well cared for and comfortable animals produce better. I'd personally rather eat meat and have farms, countryside and pets.

A vegan diet is dangerously unhealthy for many people and I’m one of them. I have three rescue dogs, and have owned horses and cats before. I think you can still be an animal lover and eat animals.

I am a meat eater but I love my cats. I would not eat cats. Most animals eat other animals it is how it is.