To be frustrated that Grammar schools are full of private tutored kids?

[Sammyp235]

So my DC sat the 11+ and passed it and was placed on a waiting list (number 10) to get in to local Grammar school.

490 kids sat test and there were 150 places provisionally set aside for the kids who scored the highest.

Now of it was an even playing field then that absolutely fair enough, but I know that it’s not. Many parents ‘prep’ their kids with a private tutor for years in some cases.

I know this as I have a couple of friends who are private tutors and we’re surprised when I said DC was going to sit the entrance test without any previous tutoring. They both advised they’ve tutored kids for up to 2 years prior 😳

There’s a child in DD’s class who’s had years of private tutoring and secured a place (it’s common knowledge and said child happily discusses it with other classmates and it was with the purpose of getting in to this grammar school)

I’m frustrated that the schools website says you don’t need any extra tutoring. The reality is that should be the case, but that leaves those that can’t afford it at a disadvantage as there are definitely plenty of kids that get the extra help then get the places.

There’s 3 kids in DC class that all have private tutors and all secured a place.

I’m of the opinion that if you need a private tutor for you DC for several months/years to pass the 11+ then perhaps it isn’t the school for your DC.

I find it annoying that so many kids have the advantage over others and take up the places. Of course if you have the money then fair enough, why wouldn’t you get private tutors in. I don’t blame the parents, but I feel that school should not have stated you don’t need extra tuition. You absolutely do as your up against it if not!!

I just feel frustrated for those kids that have a natural aptitude and academic ability, but are up against those who have been tutored to the max. It’s not an even playing field at all.....

Oh and I had to laugh to myself when one of the said mums asked me what ‘rank’ my child was placed in (none of her business) and said ‘oh so out of 500+ places your DC is 160th most intelligent 😳..... I was dying to say ‘erm actually it wasn’t an even playing fiend though was it?’

[newbienan]

You can't blame parents for wanting to do the best for their dc. It's natural.

[AaaaaaarghhhWhereAreMyKeys]

The problem is that tons of parents who have stupidly high aspirations for their child and think their little darling is too special for the local comp are playing the system. My dd is at grammar (high functioning, no tutoring, just exam prep using some bond papers) she says her school is full of “thick” kids 🤣 although coincidentally most seem to live in houses that are considerably larger than ours 🤔

FWIW I don’t think they necessarily get a better education at grammar if they’re not naturally academic. They just struggle. Eating disorders, etc are rife.

As someone has already mentioned, top universities still take many students from comps, so the unis must realise this too.

Really, they need to find an alternative admissions process, either that or abolish them and just have grammar streams within non-selective schools.

[BertrandRussell]

“ If I looked at the number of children who receive PP in 10 grammar schools and compared to 10 comprehensive schools - would they be roughly the same?“
There are no comprehensives in Kent. But the difference between the numbers of PP children in grammar schools and high schools is huge. Near me the grammar school has 1,5%, the high school 37%.

[TryingAndFailing39]

Sorry posted too early!
Some children are over tutored and may struggle once they are in the school, but many tutored children are already extremely bright but have tuition any way just because parents can afford it, or have it to focus on exam technique.

[Schuyler]

I’d love to know where all these MNers live because sooooooo many live next door to multiple abysmal schools. This is the excuse as to why “we had to scrimp and save for private school” or for a tutor. Newsflash; there are kids in very low income families who are likely much brighter than your kids and my kids. This is why the system is unfair. Some parents can not afford to “sacrifice” anything. Hey, maybe they could sit in the dark and eat gruel? I mean, they would if they really cared right?!! Our children are not better than them, we are not better parents because we can afford it.

[Loveislandaddict]

I’m of the opinion that if you need a private tutor for you DC for several months/years to pass the 11+ then perhaps it isn’t the school for your DC

In Kent, state schools aren’t allowed to prepare pupils for the 11 plus. Tutoring fills in the gaps.

I agree that tutoring kids for years isn’t good, but for the months leading up to it is fine.

[Schuyler]

@BertrandRussell

Near me the grammar school has 1,5%, the high school 37%.

That is just appalling but proves our point. It’s an unfair system that discriminates.

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

Near me the grammar school has 1,5%, the high school 37%
Very true. But hopefully there is a move towards change in this area. The top ranking boys grammar in my area are in the process of consulting on changing the admissions criteria to prioritise PP applicants. I expect the girls school to follow imminently. They still have to pass of course, and there in lies the problem.....

[Letsnotusemyname]

This is the problem with selective and/or over subscribed schools.

Depending on ones viewpoint there are always parents who are .....

........willing and able to sharp elbow their child into a particular school.

Or

.......support and encourage their offspring into what they deem to be a school suitable for their children.

Whether it be paying for tuition classes, moving house to be within the catchment zone or attending a Church out of the blue.

Even if your own child is bright and should normally get into the grammar school you may feel that you need extra tuition to make sure that others don’t overtake your child.

Even if grammar schools are abolished and the Church doesn't run schools there will always be those that are/are deemed to be better than others.

Its not a new problem. In the mid 60s we lived in Hertfordshire, near Luton. My Dad was a local primary Headmaster. No 11+ but his recommendation decided where children went at 11. He was promised a new car from a high up in the Vauxhall factory if his son went to the grammar school. Not sure where the lad ended up but we kept our little Austin van.

Not sure what the solution is - but as things are those at the bottom suffer - and they shouldn’t.

[Cailleach1]

Look at it from another perspective. Many children won't even get the encouragement, support or help you give yours. So, your children have an advantage denied others, too.

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

Therein, grrr, autocorrect!
(Ha! It just tried to change autocorrect to autocratic, hilarious)

[bigtotwig]

@CampingItUp hahaha....I don't think even the teachers could spell Oxbridge at our nearest comp.

In the real schools guide they were ranked almost 3000th out of 3166 schools in the uk.

It's a behaviour management institution, not a teaching one. I wouldn't send a child there under any circumstances.

[SkiingIsHeaven]

Surely if they are getting tutored they are just learning, which is the whole point of school isn't it.

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

Interested to see pps saying there was no tutoring 20+ years ago. DH went to the boys grammar in 1963, he was an anomaly in that he was from a single parent family, at a time when that was unheard of where we live, and had also spent time in foster care, but had natural ability and passed the 11+ easily (only having taken it at the insistence of his headmaster). The handful of, middle class, boys from his school who accompanied him to the grammar most certainly did have tutoring even then. Maybe people are just, slightly, more honest about it these days.

[Smileyaxolotl1]

let’snot
I read an article that any school with any sort of entrance criteria will have a ‘better’ intake. Even if it it was that you could balance a glass on your nose for 2 minutes, the fact that something had to be done to gain entry would bring out the supportive, ambitious parents so even if the children weren’t academically able they would have the support to do well.

[rattusrattus20]

YANBU. the system is a [very bad] joke.

[bigtotwig]

DIY with past papers and researching exam techniques would be as effective, as this is all most tutors do anyway.

But, let's face it, it takes either time or money and some people have neither, so there is no doubt that it is intrinsically unfair.

The whole education system (including private) is intrinsically unfair though.

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

Surely if they are getting tutored they are just learning, which is the whole point of school isn't it
But intense, focused tutoring on just passing one test isn’t ‘just learning’ is it? I am not inherently opposed to academic selection, there are far more unfair ways of selection at many, so called, comprehensive schools in the UK, but the route to getting in to them is broken and needs revising.

[ArtisanPopcorn]

I live in Kent and I think everyone hears about others getting private tutors so they feel they're letting their kid down if they don't too. I'm not in a super selective area so about a third of the kids from my daughter's primary pass each year and so i think everyone feels like they will have a reasonable chance if they get a tutor. I'm years away from this bit have friends currently going through it.

[IceCreamConewithaflake]

Grammars aren't fair to anyone. Especially those that end up in a secondary modern with all the top kids having been creamed off.
Grammars should be abolished.

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

Incidentally, another barrier to DH getting to the grammar in 1963 would have been that his single parent mother could never have afforded the uniform. So his primary school headmaster paid for it. Not much has changed on that score, even changing admissions criteria doesn’t pay for the expensive blazer. Having said that, Academy after Academy seem to be putting themselves in to this category too . Another form of selection.

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

Grammars aren't fair to anyone. Especially those that end up in a secondary modern with all the top kids having been creamed off
Grammars should be abolished
Yes, but as I asked a pp earlier, what about abolishing grammars would make comprehensives/secondary moderns better?

[shearwater]

It's absolute nonsense to say that tutoring at age 8/9/10 will mean they will struggle at a grammar school, it's a really difficult test and bears absolutely no relation to how they will get on at a grammar. Also even if they don't pass, tutoring can really help their performance and confidence at school. It's up to individual parents - some won't put their child through the process as it's too much stress for the child, which is fair enough.

I worried that DD1 got one of the lowest marks to get into her superselective school - it means nothing, she is absolutely flying there and getting fantastic results.

It is a stupid system though, I agree with that. But don't worry your little head about your DC's tutored friends not being able to keep up.

[shearwater]

But intense, focused tutoring on just passing one test isn’t ‘just learning’ is it?

That isn't what it is. They usually do a lot of work on English and Maths before the more intensive focus on exam preparation.

[Andysbestadventure]

Sorry OP but 🤷

Social mobility is great but grammar schools exist for a reason. If we don't push those who excel then we just end up with an employee pool for specialist fields that is essentially stagnant water.

If people want their children to have that advantage, if they don't naturally, then they pay for it.

@CherryPavlova if the less well off aren't happy with the disadvantage then maybe they should adapt their priorities. We're on a single lower wage income topped up by tax credits. We will be prioritising our DS's education above everything. He'll be attending private schools and they'll be paid for by the full time job I'll have to get when he is school age. That's on top of running two cars, a mortgage, the household, several thousand in debt and every other typical expense. Because we've budgeted for it.