To be frustrated that Grammar schools are full of private tutored kids?

[Sammyp235]

So my DC sat the 11+ and passed it and was placed on a waiting list (number 10) to get in to local Grammar school.

490 kids sat test and there were 150 places provisionally set aside for the kids who scored the highest.

Now of it was an even playing field then that absolutely fair enough, but I know that it’s not. Many parents ‘prep’ their kids with a private tutor for years in some cases.

I know this as I have a couple of friends who are private tutors and we’re surprised when I said DC was going to sit the entrance test without any previous tutoring. They both advised they’ve tutored kids for up to 2 years prior 😳

There’s a child in DD’s class who’s had years of private tutoring and secured a place (it’s common knowledge and said child happily discusses it with other classmates and it was with the purpose of getting in to this grammar school)

I’m frustrated that the schools website says you don’t need any extra tutoring. The reality is that should be the case, but that leaves those that can’t afford it at a disadvantage as there are definitely plenty of kids that get the extra help then get the places.

There’s 3 kids in DC class that all have private tutors and all secured a place.

I’m of the opinion that if you need a private tutor for you DC for several months/years to pass the 11+ then perhaps it isn’t the school for your DC.

I find it annoying that so many kids have the advantage over others and take up the places. Of course if you have the money then fair enough, why wouldn’t you get private tutors in. I don’t blame the parents, but I feel that school should not have stated you don’t need extra tuition. You absolutely do as your up against it if not!!

I just feel frustrated for those kids that have a natural aptitude and academic ability, but are up against those who have been tutored to the max. It’s not an even playing field at all.....

Oh and I had to laugh to myself when one of the said mums asked me what ‘rank’ my child was placed in (none of her business) and said ‘oh so out of 500+ places your DC is 160th most intelligent 😳..... I was dying to say ‘erm actually it wasn’t an even playing fiend though was it?’

[MrBobLobLaw]

I can only speak as a grammar school child that was tutored as my DS is only 2yo and is so incredibly bright that he'll never need a tutor.

But yes I was tutored for at least a year before I took the 11+ to ensure I got in to the same school as my sibling. I fucking hated it. Every bit of it. My mother spending every night tutoring me, the test papers, her timing me and then criticising me when I didn't pass. Doing the actual exam and awaiting the results (a low pass). And most of all, attending a grammar school that, realistically, I wasn't clever enough to attend.

Imo I would've done much better at a mainstream school. I was never book smart, just a bright, confident kid who got lost at grammar school because I could never achieve the 11 A*s my peers got but wasn't unruly so therefore just got ignored.

So YANBU OP, and I'm really happy you're not putting the pressure on your DC like my mum did. I think grammar schools should be for those kids who are naturally really clever, not kids with pushy parents who have money to throw at a tutor.

[57Varieties]

It’s just an example of why state schools shouldn’t be selective. It’s utterly nauseating but sadly to be expected where the system is geared up to the buying of privilege and not a meritocracy

[Pixxie7]

I completely agree with you. However on the positive side like yours my daughter passed her 11 plus without any tuition.
When she first went she was slightly behind the others particularly in French but when I mentioned it to her teacher I was told that in her experience children who got there on their own ability did better in the long run.
She was proved right.

[BertrandRussell]

“ Social mobility is great but grammar schools exist for a reason. If we don't push those who excel then we just end up with an employee pool for specialist fields that is essentially stagnant water. ”
Blimey. There used to be a poster who called kids who failed the 11+ “dregs”. Referring to everyone not at a grammar school as “stagnant water” is a step further!

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

They usually do a lot of work on English and Maths before
So a lot of additional work on maths and English, more than their untutored counterparts will get in the normal school day? So therefore a huge advantage. Not academically brighter, just more intensively tutored, because they can afford it? And I’m going to keep reiterating, I’m not opposed to academic selection. I’m very opposed to the way the system gets to the point of selection in the first place.

[57Varieties]

I love your daughter @AaaaaaarghhhWhereAreMyKeys. She’s shrewd and got it all sussed!

[Sammyp235]

@TryingAndFailing39 what is it you do in the selective school may I ask? Could you elaborate why you disagree?

If it’s a selective school and wants to take on the brightest children regardless of ‘class of parent’, income, etc.... and two children are presented each scoring the same mark, but one has had a private tutor for 16 months in preparation for their exam and the other hasn’t. They both work above average in class. Well if I was a grad teacher I know who I would want to take a gamble on....!

[LittleDancers]

Judashas See I think this is interesting. I know of people in years gone by who had very poor circumstances and no family support and still managed to pass the 11+. However having had experience of my DC doing the current/modern 11+ papers last year, I have to say that even bright kids could not possibly pass those papers without some form of half-decent schooling. It's not just an intelligence test, it's a knowledge test too and one is no good without the other. A kid might be naturally bright at maths, but for example the maths questions are posed in a manner designed to test their reading comprehension and ability to decode the question. Some are posed in a way which would encourage the child to answer in a certain way whereas the actual question is buried in the middle. Most of the maths could not possibly be guessed on natural ability alone, they would have to have been taught fractions, long multiplication, long division etc. to a fairly high standard not only so they can answer the question but answer it quickly as well as accurately. It's no use getting every question right if you only have time to answer 2/3 of the questions. The English section tests vocabulary, not just the meaning of the words but words in context and sentence formation. An example of one of the many different sections is identifying the odd word out. Looks simple on first glance, but decoding words into sentences gets tiring. Some of the correct sentences themselves are not simple ones either, so the student needs to be intrinsically familiar with many variations of sentence formations (gained though lots of reading, usually, which can't be tutored). An example of a simpler one:

Was Book A He Celebrate Bicycle Peter But Birthday For A Wanted His Given

Decoded: Peter wanted a bicycle for his birthday but he was given a book.
Answer - Celebrate.

Yes someone who didn't read a lot knows those words and can put them into a sentence, but someone who does read a lot (which can't be tutored) is likely to do it faster. And therefore be able to get through more questions.

Another example is a series of questions of (say) seven words given and the the odd one out needs to be identified, except most of the words given are not that of the usual vocabulary of a 10-11year old. Again, this can't be tutored. You can't tutor a kid in thousands and thousands of words beyond their average age level in the hope that they might come up in the exam in some way.

These are not exams any more in which natural ability alone is being tested. It might have been in 1963 but not now.

TLDR: Natural ability alone doesn't cut it these days

[gluteustothemaximus]

My son passed through me helping him with exam techniques. He is naturally bright. We are very working class/low income. Most others in his class were from private schools/all private tutored/majority very well off.

Grammar schools are just free schools for those who want to save on private fees.

[57Varieties]

The thing is though I suppose it’s easy to buy into the system if you can. My son is really smart and I don’t feel he needs tuition to realise his potential. But the fuck would I see people’s kids who were IMO less clever than him tutoring to get them into a selective school and I”d do what I had to to make sure my own child got where I thought he should be! So I’m glad he just goes to the local comp same as everyone else or I would be feeling the pressure I guess.

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

It’s just an example of why state schools shouldn’t be selective
There’s a hell of a lot of state schools that are selective when you start to look in to it. Obviously, there’s the selection by postcode, can you afford the expensive house next to the outstanding comprehensive? Selection by religion, another obvious one. Selection by expensive brand new academy uniform. Selection by ‘banding’ tests. This means that children living less than a ten minute walk from the outstanding comprehensive near to me, didn’t get a place because they fell in the over subscribed middle band. Children getting in to the, less full, top band came, in some cases, from an almost hours bus ride away. Great, they managed to up ’ intake. And this from a school whose head demonises grammars. Unbelievable. Finally, another ‘Non selective’ academy (that also band tests), takes twenty percent of its intake from pupils who have grade 5 music and above. Getting to grade 5 music, affording the lessons and exams and instruments, costs more than a bit of tutoring, I’ll wager, and yet academies are getting away with it. I’m certain there’s more of this going on than people realise. In the face of that, I almost feel academic selection is more honest.

[Sammyp235]

@Andysbestadventure

Oh I’m intrigued how you’re going to pay for your dc private school of about £12k per year if you’re currently receiving tax credits? Perhaps I picked that up wrong it is quite late. Good luck to you though.

You’ll have to let me in on your secret and then I don’t need to bother with a grammar school 😂

[Bluerussian]

MrBobLobLaw, I'd have hated being tutored too. I wasn't but my 'little' school was excellent and there was enough work done there plus some homework. I sometimes wonder what the primary schools are doing when so many parents pay for extra tuition - that frequently doesn't work anyway, never mind the extra hours and pressure on the child.

My son had no extra tuition either and he would have flatly refused anyway but we did play some games which he enjoyed because he's very logical and he had no problems with English and Maths. He got through 11+ quite well.

When I read about such things I think it can be quite a hard world and some schools don't cater for individuals.

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

These are not exams any more in which natural ability alone is being tested. It might have been in 1963 but not now
Sorry should have clarified, my experience of grammar and the 11+ isn’t based solely on a DH that went there in 1963. I have worked, in various schools, on Governing boards (including interviewing and selecting a new head for a primary in special measures), parent councils, PTFAs, volunteering and, ahem, ‘Activist’ - making sure our excellent state school was not swallowed up by a less than excellent MAT. I also have two teenagers that sat, and passed, the 11+ and are now in ye11 and 12.

[Sammyp235]

Thanks for all the replies. Very interesting. Everyone wants their child to go to a good school. Some children are brighter than others and pick things up more quickly.

I’ve got another lo who really really struggles so it’s not all plain sailing believe me. That’s partly the reason poor older lo has to just get on with it, as my time between working and trying to help youngest is taken up.

I do feel bad that I didn’t send her to a tutor on reflection but hey ho it’s too late now. She’s a smart girl and the local comp is ok so I’m ok sending her there.

The girl in LO’s class has been having 3 hours per week with the tutor, although I’m not sure how long for. You can’t tell me that hasn’t helped them and put them at an advantage. That’s fair enough, if you’ve got the money then why would you not. I would be concerned though that they would struggle without all that extra support.

For those saying no they wouldn’t? How’s would you know? The ones that pass everything and do well without any input are the ones that deserve the places..... but of course money talks and it’s not a fraud society.

I’ve learned my lesson and it’s tough now but equally when dc stats comp I suspect she’ll stay at the top end of the class whereas as grammar I’d worry that she wouldn’t. Whether that be due to naturally bright kids or average kids that continue to be tutored.

[LittleDancers]

Judas I guess you know a thing or two then!

So many people do believe that it's just down to natural ability and nothing else though.

Did you have tutoring for your DCs when they did the 11+?

[Lyingonthesofainthedark]

There will be payback for your Dc in the long run.

I have dd doing very well on a prestigious university course, who got there under her own steam, and who had to practically teach herself one necessary subject, because the teacher only had a gcse in the subject himself. The initiative and self learning skills my dd has to develop are giving her real head start now.

Those tutored and spoon fed may not fare so well once that support has evaporated.

[AreWeAnywhereNear]

YANBU

I went to a grammar school, after passing the 11+ (way back in the day, tutoring unheard of). DH failed everything, guess who has the 'better' job, DH.

We also have friends who went to private schools and again DH is doing 'better' than them. He's a self starter, focussed and driven, personally I think it's because he got a crap start in life, who knows what he could have achieved if he'd got an education.

Our DC's go to the 'dodgy' comprehensive, they absolutely love it, however I am teaching them education will give them the choice their dad didn't get. IMO tutoring is pointless, children need to do it for themselves seems to be working so far with mine. An acquaintance has her children tutored to within an inch of their lives, they have no life, it'll be interesting how things turn out.

[Halo1234]

I agree with everything you said in your original post. It's not a fair test if some children are tutored and others arent. Its cruel system to rank them based on their ability in one test at 11years old (is that how it works? I am in scotland and we dont have an 11+). Its a hard lesson to learn at 11 if u fail. Having said that there never was a level plain field. We are not born equal so some children are always going to be advantaged over others (not just in who got a tutor). But who had a mother that spoke to them and read to them in baby hood and who didnt. Who had a teacher that was motivated and hard working and who got one that did less than the minimum. Who had a settled home life and a warm quiet place to study and who had to stress about if there was going to be dinner. It can never be equal if u see what I mean.

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

Did you have tutoring for your DCs when they did the 11+?
No, but this was back when primaries all used the same assessment system and the maximum expected level for end of primary, year 6, was level 4+ (if I remember correctly), entrance to grammar required at least that with level 5 the desired level. My two were both working at level 6 at the end of year 5 and in the extended classes their school offered. I did, however, buy them past papers because they did nothing like the non verbal and verbal reasoning in school, and neither did they do the kind of timed exam that resembled the Kent test of the time. Even the brightest children could falter upon flipping over a test paper with something on it they’ve never seen before with only 30 seconds per question (or whatever it was then). I think the Kent test has changed somewhat no, but I think it still includes stuff children will not see in normal school lessons.

[pommymom]

Private tutoring is not the only option
It's not good for a child to go into any exam without an idea of what will be asked. Just like anything - ucas forms, GCSEs, a job - a google search is a given surely?
I paid no tutors but did google and plenty of stuff on there for 11+ such as resources on 11+ forum, free papers etc
Both dc got to where they wanted without paying for private tutors

[FluffyAlpaca19]

I think if they need to be tutored to pass the 11+ then they'll need tutoring to maintain the standards throughout grammar. If they're bright then a bit of light touch exam preparation won't hurt. However, intensive tutoring is counterproductive as they'll struggle to keep up with the brighter kids. The tutored kids might end up going from being the brightest at primary to languishing at the bottom sets in grammar.

[IWentAwayIStayedAway]

@Sammyp235 and you know the tutoring never stops!! Common knowledge about local grammar where 1 x year group x 1 subject all tutored to GCSE bar 2 children!!!

[hopityhopity]

A friend of mine failed the 11+, went to the free secondary and sixth form with me, they went to Oxford!!!
If a child has an altitude they will do well anywhere. As you've said those who need tutors for years I don't think will do as well as those who are genuinely bright even at different schools.
Obviously not a fair system but just wanted to offer some reassurance.

[Piglet89]

I’m of the opinion that if you need a private tutor for you DC for several months/years to pass the 11+ then perhaps it isn’t the school for your DC.

In theory, this sounds correct but isn’t always. My mother was a primary school teacher and (effectively) tutored me herself for the 11 plus examination in Northern Ireland. Now, academic selection at 11 was and is different in Northern Ireland because I understand that what is now the transfer test in NI is a standardised test across the region, as opposed to being a different examination depending on the county (perhaps even the school - not sure) in England.

However, although I was effectively coached at that relatively young age to pass the test, I rose to the top at my very academic grammar school and thrived, ending up at Cambridge.

Perhaps my mother never needed to coach me and I would have passed anyway. I also think the NI 11 plus in 1992 (God, I am old!) would have been MILES easier than some past papers for the 11 plus which I have seen in Kent etc!