To be frustrated that Grammar schools are full of private tutored kids?

[Sammyp235]

So my DC sat the 11+ and passed it and was placed on a waiting list (number 10) to get in to local Grammar school.

490 kids sat test and there were 150 places provisionally set aside for the kids who scored the highest.

Now of it was an even playing field then that absolutely fair enough, but I know that it’s not. Many parents ‘prep’ their kids with a private tutor for years in some cases.

I know this as I have a couple of friends who are private tutors and we’re surprised when I said DC was going to sit the entrance test without any previous tutoring. They both advised they’ve tutored kids for up to 2 years prior 😳

There’s a child in DD’s class who’s had years of private tutoring and secured a place (it’s common knowledge and said child happily discusses it with other classmates and it was with the purpose of getting in to this grammar school)

I’m frustrated that the schools website says you don’t need any extra tutoring. The reality is that should be the case, but that leaves those that can’t afford it at a disadvantage as there are definitely plenty of kids that get the extra help then get the places.

There’s 3 kids in DC class that all have private tutors and all secured a place.

I’m of the opinion that if you need a private tutor for you DC for several months/years to pass the 11+ then perhaps it isn’t the school for your DC.

I find it annoying that so many kids have the advantage over others and take up the places. Of course if you have the money then fair enough, why wouldn’t you get private tutors in. I don’t blame the parents, but I feel that school should not have stated you don’t need extra tuition. You absolutely do as your up against it if not!!

I just feel frustrated for those kids that have a natural aptitude and academic ability, but are up against those who have been tutored to the max. It’s not an even playing field at all.....

Oh and I had to laugh to myself when one of the said mums asked me what ‘rank’ my child was placed in (none of her business) and said ‘oh so out of 500+ places your DC is 160th most intelligent 😳..... I was dying to say ‘erm actually it wasn’t an even playing fiend though was it?’

[Ariadnepersephonecloud]

Oh and as PPs have mentioned, exam technique too. My daughters friends had never sat an exam and didn't know what to expect while my daughters tutor had prepared her for what would happen on the day and how to approach the exam. This also served her well for her SATS.

[Sammyp235]

@pannalash

I didn’t realise it was so rife thats why. The system isn’t fair as it’s not on natural ability alone. The playing field is not level. The grammar school said that there’s no need for private tutors, suggesting it’s all been covered etc... but things are coming out now that would suggest the children haven’t been taught at school, what was expected of them in the 11+

Of course I wish I’d sent my DC to the private tutor as it would appear that everyone else did!

[Breathlessness]

Some children might flounder if they’re only scraping a pass after intensive tutoring. For most, the advantage of the tutoring will stay with them. It’s not voodoo, it’s just what the class teacher would do if they had the time and resources.

When a teacher gives a test with marks out of 20 and some children get under 10 right, that’s where the teacher’s time and attention go. If a couple of children get 19 or 20 right they might get some work to stretch them. Those on 15-18 aren’t going to have someone sit with them, work out exactly where they went wrong on each question and show them how to do it right. Give them one to one teaching and they get stronger.

[SeaBear11]

Isn’t tutoring just parenting by another name, albeit an outsourced version? If I’m unable to afford a tutor for my children I’ll teach them myself. OP every time you have read to your child, taught them maths, helped them think logically through a problem you have been helping them towards the exam.

[C0ldtea]

Some kids go to better primary schools which will have a much bigger impact. Is that unfair?

Private tutors don’t need any qualifications and use the same stuff anybody can buy.

A parent reading a lot and a primary school ensuring solid maths will have a far bigger impact. Exam technique is just that and not enough.

[snottysystem]

I have friends that are paying for private prep simply so their DC are prepped for the 11+ & plenty of them also use tutors.

[Userzzzzz]

There really isn’t a level playing field and I feel sorry for bright kids that don’t have the parental support (either financial or education level) to prep for the supposedly untutorable tests. The thing that gets me is the lies at an institutional level that prep isn’t needed and discouraged. It is a massive lie that shouldn’t be propped up by the schools themselves. Private schools are also guilty of this (oh you don’t need to prep) but they can do what they want really. State schools have more of a responsibility (or should have) to make their tests fairer for more disadvantaged but bright pupils.

[Breathlessness]

Exam technique is huge. It doesn’t matter how much you know if you don’t get it down on paper to prove it. Time management, answering what you’re asked, showing working and rechecking answers make all the difference.

[bigtotwig]

We paid for tutoring. It worked.

Roughly an hour weekly/fortnightly (depending what else we had on, school holidays etc) for 10 months prior to the test.

DD has been top one or two in her class right the way through primary. So we weren't worried she wasn't bright enough, just that we needed her to score highly, as we're out of catchment.

If you can't afford tutoring, you can buy practice paper sets and do it yourself.

It isn't fair, I agree, but the world isn't fair and I would have done whatever it took to give my DD the very best chance of getting into a grammar school. I would much prefer a totally comprehensive system, where all schools were outstanding with excellent teaching. But, as that is as likely as flying pigs, you have to do whatever necessary.

One way to reduce tutoring massively, would be to dispense with the test and for primaries to list their top performing pupils. The teachers know who is grammar material or not. But then I guess there'd be cries of favouritism then too.

It's an impossible situation without the government pumping huge amounts of money into education and starting from scratch.

[Loopytiles]

you were naive, nothing to be done about it now.

[Ariadnepersephonecloud]

Oh also I should say we had to scrpe together tutoring money because we're both only just above minimum wage, but my daughter wanted to take the test and I wanted to support her. She is also keeping up fine and her tutoring finished the week before she sat the 11plus.

I don't think you let your daughter down at all, she passed, which is great with no tutoring when her school won't necessarily have covered everything in the exam. In fact it's more than great, and if anyone does make any snide comments I think you should point out she wasn't tutored!

[C0ldtea]

Not in the CEM exam. It’s speed you’ll only be able to do if naturally good at maths, excellent comprehension and vocabulary. Yes knowing to keep going if stuck is good exam technique to know but if you don’t have the former it won’t make much difference. Many parents are wasting their money.

[AnneTwackie]

I did the exact same thing as you, I wanted my son to get in if he met the standard, not because he had be tutored, so he wouldn’t be out of his depth. Like your child he’s bright and I expected he’d do well. We looked at a few past papers etc.
I felt quite naive afterwards as I know realise it’s like being taught to drive, you have to know HOW to pass the test and for that you need prepping.
However, I am now very glad he didn’t get into the grammar school. Friends whose children did say they are under immense pressure, those who are fairly well off feel poor in comparison to classmates, the kids have no time to follow any outside interests and, in several cases, the children have started to act quite superior. My son has continued to do well academically but also has a life and is a nice kid with a diverse friendship group. This is just my experience but what i’m saying is, don’t be too hard on yourself, your child can still achieve great things without a grammar school education.

[ElleDubloo]

I got a place at a top grammar school with no tutoring. Not just that, but I got fucking full marks. I liked maths and English, read voraciously, and enjoyed using my brain. The test is easy if you have a good brain and pay attention at school.

[Missingsandraohingreys]

Yanbu
I do Find the school System here hugely shit and unfair

[LionelRitchieStoleMyNotebook]

I wasn't tutored for a super selective grammar, I still got in. Having said that it was twenty plus years ago and perhaps tutoring wasn't as common. I think at least a small amount to look at the nature of the tests and format is fine, you wouldn't go into any other test unprepared. I don't agree with excessive tutoring, apart from anything else it's not allowing a child to just be a child.

[Goldensummer]

My ds had some tutoring and passed his 11+. He has worked at greater depth since year r and has always been naturally academic all round.

His tutoring wasn't to make him more clever, he already is naturally clever without having to really try that hard it goes "goes in" iyswim. His tutoring was to guide him with the format of the test, to help him understand questions he wouldn't learn at his primary school and to also supplement his education as his primary school is quite average and doesn't have the funding or resources to top up his academia his mind craves.

He's already getting bored in year 6 because he's "that" bright.

Grammer school is what he wants to do because in his words "it will challenge his brain in a good way."

So whilst I agree some children are prepped to the hilt with pushy parents to go to grammar school, some children are just naturally that bright in academia and have tutoring to help understand the test and to top up there primary education so it's not fair of you to tar everyone with the same brush.

[BertrandRussell]

This is why grammar schools should be abolished.

[Breathlessness]

I’m thinking of the GL exam. I’d still say that being used to being tested and not panicking would help in any test and with two equally bright children the one who stays calmer will perform better.

[WindsweptEgret]

My DS just worked through a practice book on his own, untimed, about a month before the test and got a place at a super selective. I couldn't have afforded tutoring. The brightest will get in regardless, unless maybe if they have SEN, but yes, many bright kids will miss out because middle class tutored kids are taking their places.

[bigtotwig]

Not until there is a fully comprehensive system everywhere with excellent teaching though @BertrandRussell

[Kolo]

I went to a grammar school and there was a significant number of kids who came from private prep schools or who had been tutored through the 11+, whose scores were clearly inflated by the prep/tutoring and struggled really badly through secondary at a grammar as a result. There weren't many working class kids like me in my school.

[BertrandRussell]

“ Not until there is a fully comprehensive system everywhere with excellent teaching though @BertrandRussell”

That’s not going to happen in areas with grammar schools while grammar schools still exist!

[Smileyaxolotl1]

Does anyone know when tutoring became a thing?
I went to grammar in the 90s and none of my friends were tutored.
Surely the most obvious way to make things more equal is to allow primary schools to teach 11 plus skills...

[bigtotwig]

It's not going to happen anyway! The government don't want to fund it.

In the meantime, my very bright DD needs to be stretched and inspired.

Our local comp (and there are no grammars in our city) fail to get three quarters of their kids to pass Maths and English GCSE after five years.