Please let me warn you about the New Kadampa Tradition. It is a Buddhist cult

[cultwarning]

For the sake of your families and friends I need to warn you about how this group operates. They claim to be welcoming to everyone but they will take your money, your energy and they certainly won't be welcoming to you if you question them or disagree with them.

The "guru" or leader Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has not been seen for 6 whole years yet everyone involved is expected to worship him/ keep statues of him and ONLY read books by him and him alone.

The people who run the centres use people (especially rich and young people) and are deeply unpleasant people who expel people once they are exhausted and penniless.

Recently, a young psychologist has tried to leave the religion and has been subjected to defamation of character and people in the NKT have as gone as far as to set up a website (under a fake name) in order to destroy her reputation. They have used her father's death to make out that she has various mental illnesses, it is shocking how like scientologists they are behaving.

If you have a child or family member is attending these centres please point them in the direction of this comprehensive report on the way they operate as a cult.

newkadampatraditionreport.org/2019/08/04/a-third-and-final-version-of-my-writing-on-the-new-kadampa-tradition/?fbclid=IwAR3btZJyhz48yNlbdVQcFaQ-s6Ng3cg7G243P0Ss7m0XEZSzql_g18v4qwU

I’m not surprised. I went to a NKT Buddhist centre for several years - the centre’s teacher was (and is, I’ve seen her since) one of the kindest, gentlest, and most compassionate people I’ve ever met. She, and the other nuns, were very kind to me when I needed someone to talk to, particularly when I’d gone to a meditation session for company more than anything because my grandmother was dying.

But I couldn’t bear being told that I shouldn’t read anything other than Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s interpretation of the Buddha’s teachings, or their opposition to the Dalai Lama (who always seems like rather a good egg and certainly not deserving of such vitriol). I questioned something a couple of times and came up against a wall of “Don’t ask such questions”.

So I stopped going and took up my own meditation practise, as well as reading for myself (I recommend Thich Nhat Hanh, as well as the Dalai Lama). Which was a shame because I very much enjoyed the teachings and pujas.

I went to Losang Dragpa Centre a few times on retreats (a long time ago!) and also to a Spring Festival at Conishead Priory. Later I heard Losang Dragpa had been shut down as an “impure centre”. There are people who become involved and suddenly become very, very fervent adherents.

@BrightYellowDaffodil Good for you! Yes I met some lovely people too during my time within the "tradition" (barely 30 years old!) and it is even sadder that so many lovely people are sucked into it for so long. particularly the people who are at a point in their lives where they are grieving or people who have come from difficult back grounds and they feel they are being offered a stable pseudo family life but unfortunately the "love" is completely conditional and dependant upon giving over your whole self to them that's why you aren't allowed to read books by other authors/ "gurus" they want to control every narrative and they want you to be looking at life through their lens so they have ultimate control over you.
I am happy for you that you got out when you did and that you have your own mind.

@Mrstraveller oooh yes. Just a quick google would tell you what happened there- better than Corrie- eek!
You're right some people become very very fervent adherents. I know one person whose family rejected them because they were one religion growing up and this person switched to NKT buddhism and this person completely cut people out of his social circle/ life if they weren't whole heartedly a follower of Geshe Kelsang. It's amazing/worrying how some people have to be so extreme. Very sad too.

I pulled away from it when I had a bad experience at one of the Centres. I decided to start the Foundation Programme and went to a centre in a University City. Lots of young people obviously. I didn't like some of the conversation going on about the whole Shugden thing and then went we went into the meditation room, I accidentally put my book on the floor as I was sitting cross-legged. I was told off in front of everyone by one of the residents who had been very loud in the Shugden discussion and the teacher said nothing. It was the absolute opposite of kindness and compassion. Just in normal life if you have a problem with someone in a group situation you speak to them separately and don't seek to embarrass them in front of the group. The whole motivation was wrong and I just felt there was something very off at that centre if one of the residents was allowed to get away with bullying/humiliating a visitor, even in a small way.

I left that day and never went back to the centre or proceeded with FP. I have been to a different centre for the odd meditation class but I completely drew away after that bad experience.

It was very disappointing to find out about the whole Samden thing. I would never have guessed! Naive me.

The people on this thread describing all religion as a cult are uneducated bigots and very dangerous. To suggest that people who go to the mosque or church on a regular basis are no difference from members of a tightly controlled and abusive group is insulting and irrational. Read something academic on the psychology of cults and how they operate and educate yourself about hate speech before posting drivel online.

With religions and cults it's a matter of degree.

Cults tend to play the short sell, religions the long game. Potayto, potarto.

Having said that, I do believe in God in some form and I do attend church. I'm pretty wary of anyone who claims to have 'the answers' though.

Ruffle-that is really not true in sociological or anthropological terms. People are 100% entitled to think that all religion is damaging, but the nature and kind of risks deom cults are very different.

There's clearly a big difference between a religion that demands money and won't let you leave and something like the Church of England...

Yes, time. The C of E has had 500 years since Henry VIII to of fleece millions of people and is now so fantastically wealthy, it doesn't need to hold people hostage.

I strongly disagree @Armadillostoes

It's well established that even Christianity was, to begin with, a small jewish cult - one of hundreds at around that time in the holy land.

www.icsahome.com/aboutus

Here’s a link ^^ to the institution of Cultic studies, it contains lots of useful information about cults and their definitions.

I just really hope that people will see how dangerous the NKT are when/if you dare to speak out against them in any way whatsoever.

This psychologist isn’t the only one. If you google Nick Gillespie NKT you will see that be too was slandered/threatened terribly by the NKT after he left and tried to write a book about his experiences.

People who blindly follow any belief system have to typify those who question it as 'dangerous' @Armadillostoes it's classic DARVO. I grew up in a family of 7th Day Adventists and Catholics so i'm trained to notice these things.

I think that people are getting confused about terminology here, but I am reluctant to derail the thread completely. A couple of points though and I will leave it:

1. People are entirely entitled to regard religion or a particular faith as dangerous, negative or bad. But that doesn't mean that "cult" is an appropriate label to convey that @ Rufflecrow.

2. It is true that "cult" used in the sense you refer to in relation to the beginnings of Christianity within Judaism or, say the historic "Cult of Mithras" is something entirely different, and in no way negative.

If you read the link which the OP has provided you will hopefully understand why "cult" in this context is something quite specific. If you genuinely care about people who are at risk from this kind of damage, then you won't keep undermining awareness raising by conflating this with other things. Of course if you DON'T care about victims of cults in the technical sense or their families, and just want to keep banging a general anti-faith drum and down-grading the significance of this particular form of abuse, you have a right to speech free and are entitled to do that. But I would suggest that that isn't a very caring or responsible approach.

Criticise whatever form of religion you like, but in my view, don't confuse people about the very specific nature of risk presented by "cults" in the sense outlined in the link.

I'm not a Christian myself (or religious at all) and I am definitely not saying that Christianity doesn't have major corruptions which are ongoing to this day, but OP is obviously using 'cult' in quite a distinct way here.

There isn't a hard and fast distinction between cults and regular religions, but there are some distinct features which help identify cults. Things like having a charismatic, living leader who claims special powers / insight / divinity; pressure to make quick decisions about belonging to the organisation; isolation from friends and family; brainwashing; and extreme difficulty or disincentives to leave the group. If a group exhibits some or all of these traits, there's a good chance it's a cult.

It's pretty obvious that mainstream Christianity - let's say the Church of England - doesn't fall under that label. Once upon a time there was a charismatic living leader, but that is no longer the case. There are a handful of men and women who are seen as leaders and teachers, but there is no cult of personality in respect of an individual. Members of the CofE are encouraged to give money, but they aren't required to, and there are no minimum spends (unlike in scientology, for example).

CofE members aren't required to cut off contact with their families, or to move to CofE designated living areas.

The CofE doesn't brainwash it's followers. In fact, in the modern age, debate and discussion about what Christian teachings mean and how they should be interpreted is a hugely important part of the Church. There are many interpretations and schools of thought that all coexist reasonable peaceably under the same umbrella.

If you want to stop going to church, the CofE won't threaten you, or contact your employer to suggest your mental health is compromised, or blackmail you, or set out to ruin your reputation.

You don't have to 'sign up' to be part of the CofE. You can attend church as much or as little as you want. You can be an involved member of the Christian community, or never attend anything at all.

I think it's very unhelpful to people actually concerned about cults to conflate cults with all religion. If you want to make a point about how you think religion is damaging or unhelpful or backward then go for it. But by claiming it's all a cult, you're really not aware of the specific distinctions that make cults so harmful for those trapped in them.

I'd disagree with that actually.

One of the things that first struck me about the church i attend was the youthful charisma of the clergy there. In fact it's very common in the evangelical (fastest growing) wing of the C of E.

The other thing which struck me was the constant pressure to sign up to all the various groups and activities and to tithe (give money) as much as possible and through direct debit and the hard sell on what the money can achieve.

As you might imagine, i attend for anthropological reasons as much as spiritual ones and i'm careful not to get sucked in too much.

I just can’t believe that I didn’t see any warning signs that it was a cult until now.
I had no education about cults as a kid so I fell hook line and sinker for the whole thing.
My parents used to worry and I became pious and disconnected from people but had no idea that I was slowly replacing my real friends and family for a “spiritual family”.
I’m going to do my best to warn my DD about becoming involved with a cult when she’s older.
My new rule of thumb is don’t part with a penny.
No one should be able to commodify your spiritual life.

Rufflecrow-none of that in any way relates to the point that Denirosknee, myself of the OP have made. You clearly have not read up about what cults in the sense are are describing actually mean, and just want to focus on you and your experiences. In doing so, you are potentially obscuring the real dangers people want to flag up.

There isn’t a religion I know of that doesn’t pass a bowl round asking for money

Well, yes. But, other than by doing so, how do you suppose the Christian organisations (cited because I have an understanding of their operations) pay for the clergy and the upkeep of the buildings?

There is the potential for cult-like sub-groups even in the C of E, under the control of rogue charismatic (small c) leaders. But that doesn’t mean that all religions are cults, it means that sometimes mini-cults spin off from a normal religion. It’s an extremely important distinction to make, and stating that your Auntie Gladys going to chapel on a Sunday is just as much a cult victim as a troubled 17 year old running off to join the Moonies is really not helpful.

Are these the people that protested when the Dalai Lama came to speak in the UK a few years ago? I don't think I have ever seen a group of people so passionate in their vitriol ( and I work with teenagers!) They came across as being completely unhinged.

i'm careful not to get sucked in too much

You don't have that option with a real cult. You're either wholly in or wholly out.

That's an excellent report, thank you for sharing. Much food for thought and expertly written.

Riiight @Armadillostoes

Sounds like comprehension isn't your strong suit. Never mind

@vasya - i guess once a cult gets to a certain size and amasses enough wealth, power over and acceptance by the general population they can loosen their grip a bit. Look at Scientology in parts of the US for a modern day example of that transition from cult to religion. I think US law now protects it under the constitution whereas certainly when i first heard of it that wasn't the case. And i've heard of scis marrying non-scis recently too - not sure if that's new.

Rufflecrow-You obviously don't have an answer to any of my points then? You clearly can't be bothered to find out what this debate is all about, even when a link has been provided for you. You also don't give a monkeys about the impact your comments might be having in the world-effectively down-playing the risk which cults in the technical sense pose is neither intelligent nor responsible.

But the attempt at sarcasm and the flowers indicate that you know yourself to be put of answers. Shame.

I've told DD never to join the army, the police force or a religion.