Elephants in the U.K. - ethical?

[Hiphopopotamus]

Sort of following on from the bitten by a lion thread.

AIBU to think there’s an ethical way to see elephants in the U.K.?

Elephants are my absolute favourite animal and I’d love to see them in the wild one day. However I currently don’t have that kind of money. Are there any ethical ways to see them in the U.K.? I hate the idea of zoos and places that keep animals for entertainment when they should be in the wild - but are there any proper sanctuaries or places that will release them back to the wild? It’s so hard to read between the lines though as all zoos and places talk about al the good they do. So does anyone know if there is a way I can see elephants in the U.K. with a clear conscience?

Hollo- what were they prosecuted for?

Their Christian values are vaguely there when you visit in a few signs and animal talks but not thrown in your face. For me, that's not a reason to avoid, each to their own with views like that. However, animal cruelty would be a massive reason not to go for me.

@NicoandtheNiners
No, we’re further north than that. Glad to hear there are some others.

Oh maybe I’m confusing Chester with somewhere else?

howletts or whipsnade.
in whipsnade the elefants 'work' which keeps their incredible brains busy and happy.

Belfast zoo has several elephants. I still remember seeing an elephant on the beach at Blackpool - the circus then still had animals and they used to exercise them there (assuming the lions didn’t get exercised anywhere )

I hate the Elephant enclosure at Chester, it’s tiny. Actually all zoo’s make me feel sad, it’s never a comparable space to what they would have in the wild.

I hate zoos. I hate what they stand for. I hate they pretend to be about protecting species. What benefit is it to an endangered species to be bred in captivity and only ever exist in an unnatural habitat?

If you actually meet people who work in animal conservation, (you know, the people actually getting off their arse and doing it as opposed to going on an internet forum to moan about how bad things are, people who are sometimes risking their lives battling poachers), and you ask them how they first got interested in animals, about 95% of them will say "I fell in love with these animals when I saw them at the zoo as a kid".

I genuinely don't understand why people can't grasp the concept that if it wasn't for zoos and wildlife parks running breeding programmes, a lot of species would already be extinct.

Here is one simple easily-understood example: if we released all captive elephants back into their native wild habitat they would all eventually be poached for their ivory and we'd have no elephants left at all.

I have never heard about protestors outside the zoo, let alone regularly.

I agree- I think zoos do a lot to preserve endangered species through breeding projects. Many species would be extinct right now without this. Obviously it would be better if they all existed in harmony in the wild but that is not the case. They are better at a zoo, if they are treated properly, than being poached and endangered in the wild. I hope we get to a point in the future where they can be put back into the wild and thrive I really do. But until then I think we are doing the right thing. As long as they are treated properly and have ample room in the zoos.

I agree, there are some zoos you cringe at the size of the enclosures.

West Midlands safari park has elephants......I haven’t been for a while though but no they have a large space to roam in.

I agree lifecraft. The experience of seeing animals will inspire people to care a lot more about the animals and protecting their natural habitats than never seeing them. Also many zoos do help endangered animals through breeding programs.

I went to West MIdlands Safari Park a couple of years ago, they had three elephants who had a good size space to roam around.

They don't have ample space or a good size space to roam around in. Even safari parks the space is tiny in comparison to a wild elephant's range.

I don't know what the answer is. Captive breeding because we're fucking up the planet seems unsustainable to me.

Howletts and port lympne are sister zoos and they regularly release animals back to the wild. The elephants are all now at howletts.

Many zoos have “popular” animals as a draw for the public in order to get money in for conservation for other species. No one will pay to see some rare cockroach fro the amazon rainforest but will pay to see a tiger.

We went to Woburn earlier this week and got to touch an elephant (one rescued from a working environment). It’s not the best situation but the children came away raving about elephants. We followed it up with a documentary about wild elephants and a discussion about ivory.

There are lots of pros for zoos.
1- education
2- breeding programmes for release
3- research into behaviours and health
4- breeding programmes to ensure genetic diversity (for example only a few hundred asiatic lions exist in the wild and the genetic diversity is actually greater in zoo populations)
5- bases for scientists specialising in wild populations
6- raising money for conservation projects
7- raising a love for animals in the next generation

No, they’re not perfect. No, some animals are not in great situations. Yes, they would be better in the wild.
But as previously said the scientists that work in many zoos are actually out doing work to ensure conservation.
Make sure you go to one linked to recognised breeding programmes and conservation (London, Bristol and Whipsnade in particular).

They don't have ample space or a good size space to roam around in. Even safari parks the space is tiny in comparison to a wild elephant's range.

That's a fair point.

grumpbum I wouldn’t consider Paignton zoo a particularly enjoyable way to see an elephant. There are some brilliant enclosures at Paignton but the elephant is ever so sad. There used to be two and until early 90’s they were in such a tiny concrete enclosure. You were able to reach up and feed them and everyone just gave them their picnics.

The one that’s left is one of the pair that I remember in that enclosure. She’s now only got one eye, is pretty much blind and just sways her head side to side. They can’t introduce her to a new elephant due to her age so she’s all alone. I’m sure they’re doing their best for her but the damage was done years ago. It makes me really sad every time we go.

Noah's ark built their elephant enclosure about 4/5 years ago and it was (I think) the largest in Europe when it was built.

It is slightly strange in that it doesn't open sundays but you don't really see much of the Christian message there and my Muslim friends happily visit there with their children.
That said, I'd probably go to wmsp. Last time I went they had a baby elephant and baby rhino which were both gorgeous.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221493/Zoo-skinned-dead-tiger-Tira-stored-head-freezer.html
Just some of the problems at noahs ark...

That article is a decade old. The connection with the circus is what got them stripped of their zoo status. That circus doesn't even operate anymore. Ok it does but not with animals or the same owner, just the name.
Schools in the areas regularly visit and they have a very good trip advisor rating.
I'm not defending thenm though, I just don't have enough evidence to say otherwise. I'd be interested to read anything recent if anyone has anything?

The article is old but it's the same people running the zoo. 🤔 Good reviews on tripadvisor don't mean ethical treatment 9f animals. Most schools won't go on trips there because of the creationist angle www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/wont-go-back-to-creationist-zoo-bristol

Noahs ark Bristol is not to be confused with Bristol zoo or wild place.

However, I think the question for the op isn't 'is there somewhere in UK that has ethical keeping of elephants' but 'is it ethical to keep elephants in zoos'
You'll get so much more pleasure seeing then in the wild op although obviously much more expensive!

www.blackpoolzoo.org.uk/exhibits/project-elephant-base-camp

Blackpool Zoo - amazing project.

I am pro-zoos, well, good zoos. They aren't just paying lip service to conservation, they are people doing real and important work. Visitors are an important funding source for that work. Zoos also provide a unique opportunity for the study of otherwise wild animals, enabling important habitat and re-acclimatisation work in the wild.

I've visited zoos where I've gone in expecting to be disappointed but actually I've been really happy with the welfare of the animals. I did a degree in which I studied animal welfare, so I like to think I'm fairly knowledgeable on it. What I find difficult is that I think every one I've been to there have been one or two enclosures that I don't feel are sufficient - the elephants at Chester zoo for example, and the big cats at Colchester. Not enough space, not enough enrichment. I don't remember seeing elephants at Colchester to be able to comment.